So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

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investigate
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#31 Post by investigate » 4 weeks ago

Kerry - this is generally how I am starting to see things in Revelation as well. As Rev 7:3 - "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." seems to contrast directly with the 1st trumpet blast, so the trumpet blasts would come after the 144 are sealed.

I also am nearly convinced the 144 and the great crowd are the same, or in better terms, all Christians at the start of the GT would be the 144K. Rev 9:4 - " They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.". One can only hope to avoid the torment of the locusts by having the seal of God on the forehead. The great crowd could be last minute converts that survived the full wrath of the trumpet blasts (note this is "harm" not kill), and then put faith in Christ during the GT.

The timing of the resurrection I imagine would happen later, since it takes place in Rev. 20:5 after the bowls of anger. Unless...the resurrection in 20:5 is referring to coming to spiritual life. Interesting lineup of the 1290 and 1335 days as well - I have wondered about this quite a bit myself and always viewed it as future. Will have to see, maybe, as some have said :lol:

The bowls of anger, as they happen after the victory song of the 144K in Rev 15, do seem to be purely judgmental. Everything is sealed and done at the point as regards to Christians (what most people would think of as "Armageddon"). The great crowd is not mentioned here either, lending support to them being the same as the 144K.

I wanted to post a chart to confirm this but it seems the seals/trumpets/bowls all run into each other. Like the seals started a long time ago, but end at a future period of time. The trumpets start when the 7th seal is opened/144K sealed (Rev 8:1). The bowls start when the 7th trumpet is blown (Rev 11:15). But as Rev 10:7 says, "but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.". So it's like each progression starts towards the end of the previous progression, and at some point in the future all would "end" together?

Am I way off track here?

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#32 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
4 weeks ago
Kerry - this is generally how I am starting to see things in Revelation as well. As Rev 7:3 - "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." seems to contrast directly with the 1st trumpet blast, so the trumpet blasts would come after the 144 are sealed.
Agreed.
investigate wrote:
4 weeks ago
I also am nearly convinced the 144 and the great crowd are the same, or in better terms, all Christians at the start of the GT would be the 144K. Rev 9:4 - " They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.". One can only hope to avoid the torment of the locusts by having the seal of God on the forehead. The great crowd could be last minute converts that survived the full wrath of the trumpet blasts (note this is "harm" not kill), and then put faith in Christ during the GT.
The great crowd are also sealed & ransomed during the Great Tribulation, this is what makes them the blessed ones of the Father but they are of a different class to the 144k but also receive a seal of approval.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
investigate wrote:
4 weeks ago
The timing of the resurrection I imagine would happen later, since it takes place in Rev. 20:5 after the bowls of anger. Unless...the resurrection in 20:5 is referring to coming to spiritual life. Interesting lineup of the 1290 and 1335 days as well - I have wondered about this quite a bit myself and always viewed it as future. Will have to see, maybe, as some have said :lol:
The resurrection to immortal spirit life for the 144k takes place in two stages.

1st, at the opening of the 5th seal, those who had died as part of the 144k up to this time are ressurected.

Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given.  They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been

2nd, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, those who die as part of the 144k between the opening of the 5th seal and the blowing of the 7th trumpet are raised.
This indicates that there is a significant time period between the seals being opened and the blowing of the trumpets.

Revelation 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.
investigate wrote:
4 weeks ago
The bowls of anger, as they happen after the victory song of the 144K in Rev 15, do seem to be purely judgmental. Everything is sealed and done at the point as regards to Christians (what most people would think of as "Armageddon"). The great crowd is not mentioned here either, lending support to them being the same as the 144K.
I do not believe that the 144k and the Great Crowd are the same.
investigate wrote:
4 weeks ago
I wanted to post a chart to confirm this but it seems the seals/trumpets/bowls all run into each other. Like the seals started a long time ago, but end at a future period of time. The trumpets start when the 7th seal is opened/144K sealed (Rev 8:1). The bowls start when the 7th trumpet is blown (Rev 11:15). But as Rev 10:7 says, "but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.". So it's like each progression starts towards the end of the previous progression, and at some point in the future all would "end" together?
The seals are opened first, then there is a gap, a symbolic 1/2 hour, between the opening of the 7th seal and the blowing of the first trumpet.

The first trumpet sounds after the last of the 144k is sealed.

The bowls are poured after the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

When the 7th trumpet sounds, if you have not made peace with the Creator by this point, then you have been judged as being a goat and will depart unto everlasting cutting off.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#33 Post by johnamos2.0 » 4 weeks ago

by Kerry Huish »
This will result in a great awakening for everybody.

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection to immortal spirit life for the 144k takes place in two stages.

1st, at the opening of the 5th seal, those who had died as part of the 144k up to this time are ressurected.

Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been

2nd, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, those who die as part of the 144k between the opening of the 5th seal and the blowing of the 7th trumpet are raised.
This indicates that there is a significant time period between the seals being opened and the blowing of the trumpets
:eek:

Rev 6:9-11 is a vision John seen. It didn't happen. The souls that he saw were not alive having been resurrected, it was an vision. It stating that they were told to 'rest a little while longer' shows that they were to remain dead/asleep until it was time to be resurrected.

Daniel 12:2 is speaking of the resurrection...

The resurrection that you are referring to as the 'resurrection to immortal spirit life', is what is referred to as the 'first resurrection'. You are partially correct is saying two stages. There are two parts technically a first and second, but they do not take place at separate times with time in between them, they happen at the same time.

For an example it is like boarding a airplane. FIRST rows 1-4 are called to board (the dead raised) and then SECOND rows 5-10 are called to board (the living change in a twinkling of an eye.) You can say it is in two stages but in reality it is still at the same time.

Also, NO resurrection, the heavenly or earthly takes place before the 'last day' begins. And no earthly resurrection takes place before the heavenly one. To claim that the first resurrection or earthly one takes place before the 'last day' begins is deviating from the truth. (2 Timothy 2:18)

The 'last day' begins when the 1,000 year reign beings, which corresponds to the 7th trumpet (the 'LAST trumpet' 1 Corinthians 15:52) and Jesus' arrival at Matt 24:30.

The 'first resurrection' occurs on what is the 'first day' of the 1,000 year long day. Then AFTER that at different chosen orderly times, the earthly resurrection will take place during the 'last day', the 1,000 years.

The wild beast/8th king gets his 42-month authority during the 6th trumpet. That is when the GT occurs and when the 'mark' is given out. When this 42-month authority ends (2nd woe) then within about 30 days the 3rd woe, 7th trumpet will blow, beginning the 'last day', the 1,000 years.

[2 Peter 3:8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day]

[John 11:24 “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]

[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

[Revelation 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.]

[Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short… 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, 52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, ‘at the same time’ with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

Airplane boarding: Rows 1-4 board first, Rows 5-10 board second. Same plane and same timeframe.

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”…18… the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”]

[Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.+ And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ+ for 1,000 years]

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#34 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
4 weeks ago

Daniel 12:2 is speaking of the resurrection...

The resurrection that you are referring to as the 'resurrection to immortal spirit life', is what is referred to as the 'first resurrection'. You are partially correct is saying two stages. There are two parts technically a first and second, but they do not take place at separate times with time in between them, they happen at the same time.
You are mistaken.
And I will try and help you see why...

Those raised to immortal life in the heavens are also raised incorruptible.

1 Corinthians 15:52, 53  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

Yet the 'kind' of awakening mentioned in Daniel 12:2 results in some waking to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

If this, as you contend, refers to the 1st resurrection and those who have part in this resurrection are immortal and incorruptible...

How is it that some of these are raised to shame and everlasting contempt?

Also, it is only those who are to serve as Kings and Priests with the Christ that are raised 'to life' the rest of the dead can only obtain this kind of resurrection after the 1000 years has ended.

Revelation 20:4, 5 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They a had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#35 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 weeks ago

Order of ressurection: -

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Notice that it says, those alive on earth during Christ's presence shall in no way precede those who have already died.

Those already dead in Christ are raised first. Then, afterward, those who belong to Christ during his presence are also raised.

These most certainly are not all raised together, some are there before others get there.

This also harmonises with what is found in 1 Corinthians: -

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

So the belief that 'some' of the 144k are raised at the opening of the 5th seal and the rest being raised at the 7th trumpet is in harmony with scripture.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”


Bobcat
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#37 Post by Bobcat » 4 weeks ago

Ah!, A man of few words.

I see the word immortality in the mix of things. I wonder how the thoughts in this post might alter things? (This post has all my related links to the topic of immortality.)


Bobcat

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#38 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
4 weeks ago
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
It's worth noting Kerry that that part of the verse may be spurious, as it doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, which is why it's often in brackets.

So it's possible the second resurrection will be "during" the 1000 years.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#39 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote:
4 weeks ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
4 weeks ago
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
It's worth noting Kerry that that part of the verse may be spurious, as it doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, which is why it's often in brackets.

So it's possible the second resurrection will be "during" the 1000 years.
I am not saying that I do not believe that a physical ressurection will also take place during the 1000 years - I most certainly do.

But those that are ressurected during the millennium are not ressurected to life. They are ressurected to judgment, redeemed and placed into a condition where that may reach out and eat from the tree of life.

This eating from the tree of life - for everyone else apart from the 144k - will take place after the 1000 years has ended, after Satan has been let back out, not before.

In this sense, only the 144k will 'come to life' before the 1000 years starts, with the rest being able to obtain life after the 1000 years has ended.

Being kept alive for a very long, long time and having everlasting life are two very different things.

But this is another topic entirely...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Proselytiser of Jah
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Joined: 1 month ago
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#40 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
4 weeks ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote:
4 weeks ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
4 weeks ago
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
It's worth noting Kerry that that part of the verse may be spurious, as it doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, which is why it's often in brackets.

So it's possible the second resurrection will be "during" the 1000 years.
I am not saying that I do not believe that a physical ressurection will also take place during the 1000 years - I most certainly do.

But those that are ressurected during the millennium are not ressurected to life. They are ressurected to judgment, redeemed and placed into a condition where that may reach out and eat from the tree of life.

This eating from the tree of life - for everyone else apart from the 144k - will take place after the 1000 years has ended, after Satan has been let back out, not before.

In this sense, only the 144k will 'come to life' before the 1000 years starts, with the rest being able to obtain life after the 1000 years has ended.

Being kept alive for a very long, long time and having everlasting life are two very different things.

But this is another topic entirely...

Kind Regards

Kerry
So you believe in "three" resurrections?
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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