Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#311 Post by coccus ilicis » 9 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
9 months ago
Hi CI,
Considering all the above, the rendering of γενεά as a generation in English the people born and living at about the same time appears to have been chosen when the Bible was first translated into modern languages to line up with a belief that was based on the Roman Catholic theology, i.e. that God's kingdom had come after the destruction of Jerusalem, but this is completely at odds with what Jesus taught and with what is written in Revelation.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you on this, that is, if you are saying that "this generation" in Mt 23:36 and Mt 24:34 is a mistranslation. Numerous academic commentaries which have no affiliation with the RCC see no problem with genea in those two verses being rendered as "generation".
Even so, I think much of one's interpretation of what genea means in Mt 24:34 depends on how one understands the fulfilment of Mt 24:4-31. I have come to understand Mt 24:4-30 to have been completely fulfilled in the 1st century (with Mt 24:30 metaphorically referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans). The parallel to Mt 24:30-31 can be seen in the wedding parable in Mt 22, with Mt 22:7 being parallel to Mt 24:30 and Mt 22:8-10 having its parallel in Mt 24:31.
But anyways, that's my view. Thanks for expressing your view on it.

Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

Thank you for your reply. I thought you might say that.

I am not saying it is a mistranslation but the meaning of the Greek word γενεά has a broader application, it does not limit itself to one life span. The translation of a word from one language to another is rarely exact in meaning, as Strong's definition acknowledges, and as anyone who speaks more than one language will acknowledge. Whereas the word 'generation' is limited in its meaning.

Concerning scholars, their understanding, like that of the rest of us, it is governed by their theology, even as yours and mine is.

But since they the generation, responsible for killing Jesus did not see Jesus again ...You will by no means see me henceforth until you say Blessed is he that comes in YHWH's name... Mt 23:36,39; 24:34 it appears Jesus was not talking about a single life-span but a group of individuals with the same mindset as those that condemned him i.e. clan, family etc.

The video on Martin Luther I have just posted at Revelation, post 194 gives insight into what matters concerned scholars most at the time when the Bible was first translated into modern languages. It was the financial aspect and who rules. The harlot was not unseated at that time and continues to rule the protesting/protestant religion. Thus it was and is still in her interest, that God's kingdom was established in the first century and that today's religious leaders are its earthly envoys, as this is the final card she will play in establishing her global New World Order - One Emperor (Messiah), One empire (NWO), One Church (the strong city Babylon the Great).

We are not there yet, and she still rules supreme.
LRW~

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#312 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

Hi CI,

You said:
But since they the generation, responsible for killing Jesus did not see Jesus again ...You will by no means see me henceforth until you say Blessed is he that comes in YHWH's name... Mt 23:36,39; 24:34 it appears Jesus was not talking about a single life-span but a group of individuals with the same mindset as those that condemned him i.e. clan, family etc.

You are taking Mt 23:39 as a prediction that will eventually come true in connection with the Jews (or rather, "a group of individuals with the same mindset as those that condemned him i.e. clan, family etc"). And that this interpretation requires genea in Mt 24:34 to have a meaning that stretches down over a very long period of time.

But there is another possible way to take Mt 23:39. The late Richard France (writer of the NICNT-Matthew commentary) renders the verse in the commentary as:
"For I tell you, from now on you will never see me until (3) you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the Lord's name' "

France has a footnote (# 3) regarding "until" which reads:
English idiom has no easy equivalent to the indefinite sense ἕως ἂν with the subjunctive. The ἂν indicates that this condition may or may not be fulfilled: "until (as you might not) you were to say." The sense here might better be represented by "unless."

In the comments on verse 39, France says:
The gar, "for," which links the saying with Mt 23:38 suggests that Jesus here speaks of the only condition on which the desertion of the house can be reversed or averted. It is significant that he speaks of seeing "me" (not God, whose house it was) again. As we have noted before (see on Mt 3:3, 11; 11:10, 14; 21:16, 44, and pp. 784-85), for Matthew the presence of Jesus is the presence of God. Once Jesus has physically left the temple (Mt 24:1) "from now on" his only connection with it will be to announce and explain its coming destruction (Mt 24:2, 4ff), but he himself will have abandoned it. This act of judgment can be averted only if the people of Jerusalem are prepared to follow the lead given by the Galilean pilgrims in Mt 21:9 (the acclimation from Ps 118:26 is here given in the same words) and welcome Jesus as their Messiah. As a matter of fact, some of them will probably "see" him within the next few days, when they stand outside the governor's palace shouting "Crucify him" and "His blood on us and on our children." The contrast with the welcoming words from Ps 118 could hardly be greater, and the one they welcome then will be Jesus Barabbas, not Jesus the Messiah. It is not that sort of "seeing" that Jesus is speaking of here.

There is no prediction here, only a condition. Or, rather, the only prediction is an emphatic negative, "from now on you will certainly not see me," to which the following "until"clause provides the only possible exception. They will not see him again until they welcome him, but the indefinite phrasing of the second clause (11) gives no assurance that such a welcome will ever be forthcoming. Jesus will tell the Sanhedrin that "from now on" they will "see" the Son of Man vindicated and enthroned (Mt 26:64), but there is no suggestion here that they will welcome him even then as the one who comes in the Lord's name. The discussion as to whether Matthew, like Paul in Rom 11:1-32, holds out any hope for the future repentance and return of Israel thus finds no material in this saying. It spells out the condition on which Jerusalem may be restored to a relationship with its Messiah, but it gives no indication as to whether or not that condition will ever be met. For the present, the dissociation is final.(15)
[Scriptural citations in the quote above were reworked so as to be compatible with the RefTagger app. ─ Bobcat]


Footnote 11 from the last paragraph above reads:
ἕως ἂν with the subjunctive makes this in effect what grammarians call an unreal condition: if you were to do this, you would see me, but whether you will do so remains unknown. For the grammatical point see D. C. Allison, JSNT 18 (1983) 78-79. It is remarkable that so many interpreters can find a positive prediction in what is in fact an emphatically negative prediction (οὐ μή with subjunctive) with only indefinite possibility (ἕως ἂν) set against it.

Footnote 15 from the last paragraph above reads:
Interpreters sometimes take this saying as referring to Jesus' parousia, when, it is supposed, Israel will repent and welcome him as Lord when they see him returning. But there is nothing in either the wording or the context to suggest a parousia reference. Some would connect this saying with the prediction in Mt 24:30 that Israel will mourn when they "see the Son of Man coming," but I shall argue there that that prediction relates not to the parousia but to the destruction of the temple. The messianic welcome (not mourning) spoken of here is the condition for "seeing" him, not the result of it.

What France writes about Mt 23:39 above is much different from the majority take on Mt 23:39, which, your view is much closer to that majority view. So I would venture to say that in this instance it is you who has been influenced by the traditional view of Mt 23:39 and "this generation" of Mt 24:34. I don't disagree that genea does have a range of possible meanings, depending on the context. But I stand by its meaning of "contemporaries" in Mt 23:36 and Mt 24:34. To me that is the simplest way of understanding Jesus' words in those verses.

Regarding a discussion of Mt 24:30 that is similar to France's view of it, see the first 5 links on this post (which is part of this thread).


Bobcat

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#313 Post by coccus ilicis » 9 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
9 months ago

But there is another possible way to take Mt 23:39. The late Richard France (writer of the NICNT-Matthew commentary) renders the verse in the commentary as:
"For I tell you, from now on you will never see me until (3) you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the Lord's name' "
....France has a footnote (# 3) regarding "until" which reads:
English idiom has no easy equivalent to the indefinite sense ἕως ἂν with the subjunctive. The ἂν indicates that this condition may or may not be fulfilled: "until (as you might not) you were to say." The sense here might better be represented by "unless."
Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

I read the above and do not see the problem. Yes, until has a subjunctive aspect and could read ... you shall not see me again until you should say blessed is he that comes in the name of YHWH ... Mt 23:39 What does that have to do with clan/generation.

Your commentator says:
It is significant that he speaks of seeing "me"
If Jesus addressed his audience in Hebrew/Aramaic I doubt he would have said, ...blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord... I may be wrong but I can't recall him using that phrase elsewhere in connection with his father, and he certainly did not refer to himself as Lord, others did. On the contrary, he said:...Why then do you call me Lord! Lord!, but do not do the things I say? (Lu 6:46) Or ... Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name ...and do powerful works in your name... and yet then I will confess to you get away from me you workers of lawlessness... (Mt 7:22). But then that's a separate issue.

I fail to see how 'until' having a subjunctive aspect changes what I say about the meaning of the word 'γενεά' translated 'generation'. A Google search for 'generation word origins' produced the following: Generation is from Anglo-French and Old French generacioun (with many spelling variants) “line of descent; body of individuals born and alive at about the same time,” senses that first occur in the Vulgate (the Latin version of the Bible, prepared chiefly by Saint Jerome at the end of the 4th century). (bold and underline mine)

As I pointed out at the time when the Bible was first translated into modern languages. Martin Luther's main issue with his church was that it was charging money for the forgiveness of sin and saving souls from purgatory etc. When the Barons read what the Bible said in their own language, German, some of them supported Luther. And when the peasants heard what it said in their own language concerning the paying of tithes to the church and their feudal Lords they rose up in revolt. It was the harlot mother that financed the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible to break up the power of the Catholic Church. It was a battle between banking houses, between mother and daughter, Jewish mercantile bankers and the Knights Templar bankers. The Knights Templar set up a prosperous network of banks and gained enormous financial influence. Their banking system allowed religious pilgrims to deposit assets in their home countries and withdraw funds in the Holy Land. See also warrior monks who invented banking. See also youtube video in post #194, here: Revelation, post 194

It was in neither party's interest to undermine the power embodied in the church system as such, which would continue to be used to subdue the masses. So the view that church leaders are envoys of God's established Kingdom remains to this day and will be a feature of the Great strong city of the 8th beast, the one the harlot rides.
LRW~

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#314 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

Believe as you see fit CI.


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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#315 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

This post has a link to a Wikipedia article with a listing of Messianic claimants in the 1st century (as in Mt 24:4-5, 24-25)


Bobcat

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#316 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

Mathew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Jesus is talking about the time immediately AFTER tribulation. AND It really is a futile argument for one to claim the other things Jesus mentions already took place.

Verse 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

We know that didn't happen either. And he's not saying the sign of his return is for the people or generation he's talking to, it's the generation sees and the sign s and endure the tribulation.

Verse 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. An angel sounding the trumpet proves that this is about end-time events. Verse 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Verse 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

VERSE 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Jesus uses the word 'THIS' because 'this' is the generation that will see and endure what he is talking about. The word THIS is better understood in some verses as "even so" even as" and "so thus." And in some translations "these" and "the same." The antecedent to "this Generation" in verse 34 is ALL of what Jesus said between verses 4-33. Look at it this way... "SO THUS, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Jesus is talking TO the people in front of him about the people who will SEE these things pass. Not ONCE does the passage suggest Jesus is deviating from talking about "the end" or any other generation other than the one that sees and endures what Jesus said about...

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#317 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Welcome to the forum Harpo.

Just a few comments on your post:
Mathew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Jesus is talking about the time immediately AFTER tribulation. AND It really is a futile argument for one to claim the other things Jesus mentions already took place.
More specifically, Jesus says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." (Greek Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων; literally, "Immediately then after the tribulation the days of those"). In other words, "the tribulation" that Jesus is referring to is qualified by "of those days." It's not simply "immediately after tribulation" as you interpreted.

Verse 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

We know that didn't happen either. And he's not saying the sign of his return is for the people or generation he's talking to, it's the generation sees and the sign s and endure the tribulation.
Again, it depends on how you read the verse (Mt 24:30, that is). You are interpreting it as "the sign of his return." I agree with you that Jesus did not return during the great Jewish-Roman War. But the word order of the verse in Greek, and the allusion to Dan 7:13-14, lends itself to reading the verse a little differently than you are reading it.

Additionally, Mt 24:33-34 does place Mt 24:29-30 among "all these things" that would occur before "this generation" disappeared. So that, going by what Jesus said in Mt 24:33-34, we should expect that Mt 24:29-30 did take place in the first century before "this generation" passed away.


Bobcat

Harpo
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#318 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

Jesus used the fig tree illustration to show us WHEN this would all occur. He mentions his return in verses and then mentions the fig tree illustration. "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

So likewise ye, WHEN ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Know that 'WHAT' is near? His return!

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

When people SEE the fig tree bear leaves they know summer is near. When people see the events Jesus mentions PASS - we know his return is near.

The generation that SEES the events Jesus mentions between verses 3 and 33 'PASS' IS the generation he's talking about.

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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#319 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi Harpo,
Know that 'WHAT' is near? His return!
Not everyone understands it that way. See this post from about 4 years earlier in this thread.

The generation that SEES the events Jesus mentions between verses 3 and 33 'PASS' IS the generation he's talking about.
Agreed. See this post showing how "this generation" in Mt 24:34 forms an inclusio with "this generation" in Mt 23:36.


Bobcat

Harpo
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#320 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

I did read that earlier and found it very confusing and not very concise. This paragraph...

"Thus, when "is near" in Mt 24:33 and Mk 13:29 is understood to refer to the destructive and judgmental "end" of the Jewish system, then, 'the kingdom of God being near' in Luke 21:31 is in connection with that same thing: Salvation from the Jewish system for Jesus' disciples, and destruction for the Jewish nation and its Temple, which, up to about 64 CE, is the chief source of persecution for the disciples. (In 64 CE Nero becomes the first Caesar to persecute Christians specifically.)"

...is in my view way off the mark. Nothing in the text implies this has anything to do with the end of 'the Jewish system'. Jesus answered the disciples question very well. When - shall these things be, what - shall be this sign of thy coming AND the end of the age. Jesus said he didn't know WHEN he would return. The only way Jesus was able to tell his disciples 'when' he is coming/returning was to explain WHAT events would take place 'just prior to' his coming. The fig tree proves this.

"Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near."

Jesus assured that when these signs appeared,...

Being hated of all nations.

Many betray and hate one another.

Many false prophets rise deceiving many.

Iniquity abounds - the love of many grows cold.

THE gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.

Great tribulation,
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be".
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".

...His return would be near.

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