Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

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Orchid61
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#301 Post by Orchid61 » 9 months ago

as well as its lack of use in Revelation.
Never thought of that, thank you Bobcat 👍

Regards,
Maria 🌷

AmosAu3
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#302 Post by AmosAu3 » 9 months ago

Hi Stranger and Bobcat,

That's a good thought by Stranger. My own thoughts on this matter somewhat hinge on the earlier section of Matt. 24. Please consider the thought surrounding the quoted verses in this post;

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 

When Jesus said, "All these are the beginning of sorrows", I've come to think he was referring to when they would begin/start. If this is so, it only goes to follow that the sorrows were expected to last a long time, perhaps many centuries. (even until our time)

Regards, Amos.

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menrov
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#303 Post by menrov » 9 months ago

Is it not strange that we can have so many discussion on this term (this generation)? If this statement from Jesus was meant to protect people, should it not be more explicit if His statement was not meant for just the people in his time and to those who were with him? Now people depend on the interpretation of religious bible teachers, each with their own viewpoints and agenda? Why would people or his disciples want to listen to Jesus if his warning message was not for them? Do we really believe that Jesus on purpose made a statement that allows for many interpretations so that religious leaders (men not Jesus) can use this to attract people to follow them instead of following Jesus?

Stranger
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#304 Post by Stranger » 9 months ago

Here's some other definitions of the word "generation".

Merriam-Webster: the process of coming or bringing into being.

Collins: Any of the stages of successive improvement in the development of a product, system, etc.

Greek word of interest: ginomai



Stranger

Bobcat
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#305 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

Hi Stranger,
Greek word of interest: ginomai

Not to nitpick, but I think you meant genea (γενεά, Strong's 1074). Ginomai is an infinitive (a basic verb form) that means, "to become." (E.g. Rev 16:17 where God says, literally, "It has become." Also Rev 16:19 where the 1st part of the verse says, "And the great city became into three parts." Often rendered in this verse as, "was split.") Genea is the word for generation.

I agree with Menrov in that the only understanding of "this generation" in Mt 24:34 that doesn't need an interpretation is the understanding that it refers to the contemporary Jews upon whom God's judgment was coming. This meaning is the natural way to understand it in Mt 23:36 & Mt 24:34. If it referred to some distant future group or a group that would stretch out over 20+ centuries, it wouldn't make sense for Jesus to tell the four disciples he was talking to, "when you see all these things then know . . . truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things occur."

At the same time, it is good to see others thinking about it and free to express their view. I'm glad we have that here.


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#306 Post by coccus ilicis » 9 months ago

Hello Bobcat,

This may not be the main point of what you have been discussing here, but it is relevant. The reason I write the following as a reply in your thread is not to detract from your discussion of the topic but it is because the Greek word γενεά rendered generation in scripture plays a vital role and unlike γενεά it always refers to one lifespan. And since I sometimes refer to verses containing the word 'generation' I want to be able to refer the reader to this post here for a more in-depth explanation. You may have already dealt with this aspect in this thread if so I apologize.

In English the word generation In general applies to one life span.
Google : all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively. Whereas in Greek it can stand for race, family, generation #1074 https://biblehub.com/greek/1074.htm

In the OT there are a number of Hebrew words rendered γενεά in Greek (LXX). If Jesus addressed his audience in Hebrew/Aramaic, which was then rendered γενεά in Greek and subsequently rendered generation in English it would completely distort the meaning of what he said in Matthew chapters 23 and 24.

For example, compare the following Hebrew text with the same verse in the Greek (LXX) text below it.

The Hebrew word #4138. moledeth kindred, birth, offspring is rendered #1074 genea/γενεά family, in English
Image

Here the Hebrew word #2233 zera a sowing, seed, offspring, descendant is rendered genea/γενεά/generation in Greek
Image

And the Hebrew word dor #1755 period, generation, dwelling most often rendered generation, although singular, at De 32:7 it is rendered generations, plural, since it clearly refers to more than one generation. See verse 2 LXX here, which indicates that dor can be used as a singular or plural word, in the same way as sheep is both singular and plural.
Image
(All snips are from the biblehub.com site and can be checked against the original, by searching for the indicated verse in the Interlinear or the Apostolic Polyglot [LXX] on that site, arrows, highlights and added text mine)

Considering all the above, the rendering of γενεά as a generation in English the people born and living at about the same time appears to have been chosen when the Bible was first translated into modern languages to line up with a belief that was based on the Roman Catholic theology, i.e. that God's kingdom had come after the destruction of Jerusalem, but this is completely at odds with what Jesus taught and with what is written in Revelation.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the controversy surrounding this issue. For those interested, the BBC mini-series Wolf Hall gives insight on the situation that prevailed at the time the Bible was first translated into modern languages.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#307 Post by coccus ilicis » 9 months ago

Correction to the above.
coccus ilicis wrote:
9 months ago
See verse 2 LXX here
Should read, see verse 7 LXX here
LRW~

Bobcat
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#308 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

Hi CI,
Considering all the above, the rendering of γενεά as a generation in English the people born and living at about the same time appears to have been chosen when the Bible was first translated into modern languages to line up with a belief that was based on the Roman Catholic theology, i.e. that God's kingdom had come after the destruction of Jerusalem, but this is completely at odds with what Jesus taught and with what is written in Revelation.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you on this, that is, if you are saying that "this generation" in Mt 23:36 and Mt 24:34 is a mistranslation. Numerous academic commentaries which have no affiliation with the RCC see no problem with genea in those two verses being rendered as "generation".

Even so, I think much of one's interpretation of what genea means in Mt 24:34 depends on how one understands the fulfillment of Mt 24:4-31. I have come to understand Mt 24:4-30 to have been completely fulfilled in the 1st century (with Mt 24:30 metaphorically referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans). The parallel to Mt 24:30-31 can be seen in the wedding parable in Mt 22, with Mt 22:7 being parallel to Mt 24:30 and Mt 22:8-10 having its parallel in Mt 24:31.

But anyways, that's my view. Thanks for expressing your view on it.


Bobcat

Stranger
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#309 Post by Stranger » 9 months ago

Hi Bobcat,

I'm doing fine and thanks for asking, I just thank the Lord each day for everything.

Bobcat wrote:
9 months ago
"This generation" (of Mt 24:34) is controversial for many.

You are right, it has been ranked in the top 1-?, as being the most difficult scripture in the NT to interpret and then I would assume translate or transliterate it. (that's according to the NET scholars and apparently the view of so many others including us down to this day.


I'm gonna put this in the pot the for sake of argument since there seems to be so many varying views of the (Greek Words?) that Jesus spoke.

I know that "Strong" was granted the degree of Doctor of Divinity, and he's the go to man for a lot of Christian literature producers, and not just them, but also the ones who want to control mainstream Christianity. He is trusted by many as the final Word of God, but that probably does not include the two groups listed just above.

There are generally three categories of believers who appeal to "the Greek" (or Hebrew) to "correct" or "amplify" the KJB.
1. University professors, scholars, and others with advanced degrees in Hebrew and/or Greek.
2. Ministers who have had SOME (sometimes very little) formal Greek/Hebrew training.
3. Ministers and believers who have had NO formal Greek/Hebrew training (that is, essentially anyone not in #1 and #2).

Nearly all the "authoritative" material written on the original languages (lexicons, dictionaries, word studies, etc.) were written by persons in group #1 (Strong, Brown, Driver, Biggs, Thayer, Robertson, Kittle, Wuest, etc.). Persons in groups #2 and #3 nearly always quote the works of those in group #1 as their authority for "going to the Greek." They apparently feel they don't have the knowledge or ability to make an independent judgment about the very source they are quoting to change the English Bible.
Contrary to the implication the term "the Greek text" carries in books and lexicons, there is more than a single Greek text. A reference to the "Greek text" can be to any one of thirty some compiled texts. Some of the texts have as many as 5000 differences between them. Needless to say, "scholars" cannot agree on which text is best and often they disagree on the translation of certain Greek words. The world of Christian scholarship is by no means a word of unanimity, each "scholar" seems to have his own "preferences" thus they can't come to a consensus. This is why there are over thirty compiled Greek texts and over 100 English translations, and no two read the same! Greek/Hebrew scholarship is not always as concrete and consistent as many are lead to believe. Very little is a certainty in their philosophical world; it is ruled more by subjective preferences and opinion than they care to admit.


Stranger, (Ps 140:3)

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menrov
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#310 Post by menrov » 9 months ago

See this for different explanations of this word (generation, G1074) --> https://studybible.info/strongs/G1074, it seems this word is not used in Revelation (https://studybible.info/concordance/new/G1074)

Genesis 31:1 is not everywhere translated with the word Generation. Often it is Fathers. See all here --> https://studybible.info/compare/Genesis%2031:3

See here for extensive explanation of H1755 --> https://studybible.info/strongs/H1755

But regardless of any religious conclusion or grammatical analyses, the context should always be taken into account, as such, I agree with Bobcat. Unless readers are putting their own thoughts into the mind of Jesus in order to support their own agenda, a neutral reader will only be able to conclude that Jesus was talking to the people around him, warning them about the things that would happen soon and this message was important to his audience as all would happen when they and those around them are still alive (excluding those that would have died due to sickness etc). If it would hold a message for the future (which future??), you would expect Jesus himself repeating these words as a prophesy to John and ask him to write them and share with the congregations (revelations). Jesus would not leave it to religious leaders to interpret his words in order to warn the people. Jesus did not really trust the Pharisees and teachers of the law. Would he suddenly trust religious leaders in the future to explain his words and as a result, people would be looking up to these leaders?

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