Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

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Genesis
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#281 Post by Genesis » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 years ago
One of the interesting things when comparing the two vulture/corpse sayings (Mt 24:28 with Luke 17:37) is that Matthew puts the vulture/corpse saying immediately after the lightning/parousia saying (Mt 24:27) without the mention of the men/women who are taken/abandoned part. (That is mentioned later in Mt 24:40-41) This allows the possibility that the disciples understood the vulture/corpse saying apart from the men/women taken saying. Or at least saw the vulture saying as belonging to a wider context.

In Luke the lightning saying is also before the vulture/corpse saying (Lu 17:24), but there is a little more distance between the verses.

Also, in Luke, Jesus appears to be discussing the judgment that fell upon the Jews. (Mention of Jesus' suffering and "this generation" (Lu 17:25) and the fleeing (Lu 17:31-33 - compare the chart here where Rev does not have the fleeing of the 1st century judgment).

Also, comparing Jesus' disciples feeding on himself with vultures feeding on a corpse is a bit grisly. I can't think of anyplace else in the scriptures that have a similar description of the relationship between Jesus and his disciples. Even John 6 requires some interpreting to get that sort of scene. (This is probably why the Insight book goes to a lot of effort to explain why it prefers "eagles" over "vultures.")

All these things have me wondering if there is a better explanation of the vulture/corpse saying than the WT's explanation (which is the same as Genesis expressed).


Bobcat
Did the Jews in the first century have to flee Jerusalem as quickly as getting down off their roof and not going inside to gather their belongings?

No. Why?

Bobcat
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#282 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Did the Jews in the first century have to flee Jerusalem as quickly as getting down off their roof and not going inside to gather their belongings? No.

Those were Jesus' instructions. (Mt 24:16-18; Mk 13:14-20; Lu 17:30-33; 21:20-23) Whether Christians in Judea followed those instructions - you'll have to ask them. But as Jesus' instructions imply, the window for fleeing, after the event described in Mt 24:15, was very brief.

Josephus mentions that after Cestius Gallus' forces were decimated at Beth-Horon (after retiring from their siege of Jerusalem and the Temple), even "many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city [Jerusalem] as from a ship when it was going to sink." (JW 2.20.1) Those in the city who did not show support for preparations in the war effort against the Romans were treated mercilessly. Only a hasty flight would have been safe. Jesus' words correctly anticipate that. (Posts 192 & 195 in this thread attempt to show that the timing of events back then was already known, to the day.)

This page also describes the small window of opportunity Christians had to flee Jerusalem after Gallus' retreat. It shows that Jesus' inspired instructions for a very hasty flight were quite appropriate. (See also this page which describes the need for Christians to flee swiftly after seeing the sign described in Mt 24:15.

This page has historical references to the flight of Christians from Jerusalem. Also this page.


Bobcat

Get out of her
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#283 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
This allows the possibility that the disciples understood the vulture/corpse saying apart from the men/women taken saying. Or at least saw the vulture saying as belonging to a wider context.

All these things have me wondering if there is a better explanation of the vulture/corpse saying than the WT's explanation (which is the same as Genesis expressed).
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this Bobcat, and I especially respect and appreciate the loving and respectful way you did so in view of the fact that I felt forced on this occasion to express criticism on your last post. What a fine example for all of us and I hope you understand it is always very difficult for me to say anything negative about someone's input. Until the time (and assuming it even happens at all in our case) that we are "incorruptible and immortal" spirit beings at least, of us will continue to need help from others at times and myself included. (1 Cor 15:51-53) Okay back to your comments:

If you were to go over my last post a little more carefully I'm sure you will notice that I'm actually already concurring with you that there is indeed more being conveyed here with this "carcass"/"vulture" symbolism found here in Matthew and Luke than simply the spiritual feeding of Christ's "domestic's" during these foretold periods of the "harvest of the firstfruits." (Mt 24:45) (Re 14:4) In my case I am seeing at least three different things being represented here in prophetic symbolism simultaneously which I specifically identify and list by number in my previous post. EACH of these I am recognizing as EXTREMELY CRUCIAL for the spirit anointed ones to grasp during these prophetic time frames of spiritual cleansing and rebirth. This actually brings me to your next thought:


Also, comparing Jesus' disciples feeding on himself with vultures feeding on a corpse is a bit grisly. I can't think of anyplace else in the scriptures that have a similar description of the relationship between Jesus and his disciples. Even John 6 requires some interpreting to get that sort of scene.

I tell you most truthfully Bobcat that I sometimes find myself wishing that Jesus had used extremely strong spiritual language like this even more often than he did in the Gospel accounts. Why is this?

Perhaps its just laziness on my part because I think this might have made the ministry that I accepted to the anointed much easier. You see I can tell you exactly why Jesus at times even resorted to shocking language in his ministry. This is because even when it came to his 12 primary disciples, he was CONSTANTLY struggling to even get their attention AT ALL when it came to the most CRUCIAL things for them to understand. (Mt 16:22, 23) (Mr 4:13) (Joh 14:9) So what exactly were these things?

These things are PRECISELY what is being conveyed with prophetic symbolisms such as this "carcass" surrounded by "vultures" here in accounts like Matthew 24 and Luke 17! This very same symbolic representation of the community responsibility for these broken marriage covenants and its corresponding spiritual death on a NATIONAL level is actually represented in MANY WAYS and THROUGHOUT the scriptures. Other examples of this are the way in which ancient Rahab was actually represented as a prostitute, or the manner in which the "fleeing woman" of Revelation 12 is represented with these same "loathesome" ("disgusting thing") "wings of an eagle." (Re 12:6, 14) (Le 11:13)

You see Bobcat the entire objective of the prophets during these foretold periods of national apostasy is to assist Jehovah in preparing the earth for the next birth or "coming" of the kingdom. This is exactly what is meant by prophetic expressions such as this "…voice crying out in the wilderness;" make the way of Jehovah straight." (Isa 40:3) (Joh 1:23) Do you really have any idea at all just how difficult this is when even the anointed have been programmed their entire lives to believe exactly the opposite of what you now need to tell them?


These constant lies or false reassurances that the masses are ALWAYS subjected to during these time frames are exactly what is being represented with this cry of "peace and security" found in accounts like 1 Thessalonians 5:3 or Jeremiah 8:11. Jesus and John the Baptist were not going around telling their disciples to just keep being the wonderful righteous people that they were, just keep showing up at the meetings and putting your money in the contribution box, raise your hand once in a while and say Jehovah and you will be sure to sail right through the great tribulation without a hitch and right into an eternal paradise. NOT AT ALL! Quite to the contrary their message was essentially this:

"REPENT!" Because you are DEAD! The kingdom covenant has bee broken again which means that you are not even God's people! (Mt 24:15, 16) Even your precious religious leaders that you always admire and obey so much are "whitewashed graves" and "offspring of vipers" who serve satan and "teach commands of men as doctrine." (Mt 3:2, 7 15:9 23:27) (Joh 8:44) But the good news is you still have the tremendous privilege and opportunity to aspire to be a vulture and begin feeding off a carcass here in the wilderness so that you can actually have life again. (Joh 6:53) (Mt 24:28) Be prepared to say goodbye to all your friends and family in the process because they will think you completely lost your mind and gone apostate as well. (Lu 21:16, 17) (Mr 3:21) Oh yeah and you can now proudly point to us as your new religious leaders, us guys over here wearing sackcloth and camel's hair eating grasshoppers and locusts all the time. (Mt 3:4) (Re 11:3) Please ignore all the bee stings because sometimes we also forage for wild honey when we get tired of the locusts. (Isa 53) Did I forget to mention that everything around you that you are so fond of and proud of like this big beautiful temple that Herod built is about to be wiped off the face of the earth? (Mt 24:1, 2, 37)

Rest assured Bobcat that these two entirely distinct preaching messages occur on the earth each and every "time" that the theocratic kingdom is about to be reestablished on it. Moreover, even in the case of the spirit anointed, the VAST MAJORITY of them will ultimately gravitate much more toward the message that sounds much more palatable to them. (Joh 6:60) (Mt 7:13, 14 23:14)

We might think of it like this: Even if people in these periods of time in which they have once again long now been taught "commands of men as doctrine" instead of the scriptures TRULY UNDERSTOOD exactly what is commanded of them in these foretold "seven" periods of national apostasy, why would they even BEGIN to conform to these commands if they could not even wrap their minds around the fact that they were ACTUALLY IN one of these time frames of complete national death in the first place? Why would you do what is necessary to get "taken in" by God if you have successfully been led to believe your entire life that you are a good "Christian" and you ALREADY HAVE life? (2 Cor 6:17) Most people by this time don't even know that to call themselves a Christian means they are claiming to be anointed!

I'll be completely honest with you Bobcat. I feel like I have almost entirely failed in my assigned ministry to the spirit anointed up until now. No matter what I say, how often I say it or how thoroughly I demonstrate it scripturally, even up until this moment I see only a very tiny percentage of my brothers and sisters even BEGINNING to perform what is being represented in prophetic symbolism there for us in prophetic pictures like this "carcass" in the wilderness with these "vultures' surrounding it and feeding off it. I suppose I should not allow myself to be too disheartened over it however. Even after YEARS of this very same ministry on the part of ones such as John the Baptist and Jesus himself, barely over 100 people on the ENTIRE EARTH had succeeded in preparing themselves for a direct theocratic appointing by Jehovah and its corresponding outpouring of holy spirit. (Ac 1:15 2:1-4) We are absolutely fooling ourselves if we imagine it will turn out much different in our time.

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
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Re: Matthew 24:34 - The Vulture Saying of Lu 17:37; Mt 24:28

#284 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

The Vultures/Eagles Saying of Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28


Introduction

The vulture/eagle saying of Lu 17:37 and Mt 24:28 happens to be one of the more enigmatic sayings of the gospel accounts. The number of different interpretations I have seen in my research so far, are, in many cases, also accompanied with confident declarations that their proposed interpretation is assuredly the correct one.

The interpretation provided by poster "genesis" is the view held by the WT (which I also held, without question, at one time). In this interpretation the "eagles" (see it-1 664; the article "Eagles", and under "Figurative Use") refer to Jesus' disciples and the "body" is "the True Christ, the Son of man" who, "at that future time," will "provide his disciples with lifesaving truth." (jy 219; Note: I am not implying that poster "genesis" holds to everything the WT does. I am only pointing out that the view he expressed about the 'eagles/vultures' saying corresponds with what the WT teaches.)


Eagles or Vultures?

One problem the WT explanation of Lu 17:37 and Mt 24:28 encounters is if "eagles" is translated as "vultures." As it turns out, the Greek word (ἀετοὶ) can be translated either way. The Insight reference cited above spends a paragraph explaining why the WT prefers "eagles" in that passage. For comparison, the NET footnote # 98 at Lu 17:37 (here), and footnote # 38 at Mt 24:28 (here) both show why many translations prefer "vultures." The main points of difference are that eagles are generally solitary, but the Greek word in both verses is plural. Also, eagles generally prefer live prey, while vultures prefer carrion. Thus, vultures better fits the context.

The reason "eagles" seems to be preferred by the WT is due to the noble image presented by "eagles," versus the gruesome image presented if "vultures" is used. As mentioned, the Greek word can mean either. But the setting ("vultures" = plural) and "corpse" (ptoma in Matthew) lends itself to "vultures." In Luke, soma ("body") is used. Soma can refer to either a live body or a dead one, depending entirely on the context. (Lu 11:34; 12:22, 23; 23:52, 55; 24:3, 23) But ptoma definitely refers to a corpse or carcass. (Mt 14:12; 24:28; Mr 6:29; 15:45; Rev 11:8-9) The idea of Jesus describing his disciples as vultures feeding on a corpse (i.e. on Jesus) would be quite grisly. For example, Ellicott's commentary on Mt 24:28 says:
Two interpretations of this verse may, without much risk of error, be at once rejected:—(1) [the idea of the "eagles" referring to the Roman armies] . . . (2) The strange fantastic imagination of many of the Fathers that the “carcass” is Christ Himself, as crucified and slain, and that the eagles are His true saints and servants who hasten to meet Him in His coming. Those who picture to themselves with what purpose and with what results the vultures of the East swoop down on the carrion which they scent far off upon the breeze, will surely find such an explanation at once revolting and irrational.

In a similar vein, Constable's Notes comments:
Another view is that the corpse refers to Christ and the vultures are God’s children gathered to feed on Him. However the idea of feeding on Christ is foreign to the context, and the comparison of Him to carrion is unappealing.

Thus, understanding the birds as vultures feeding on a corpse lends the two verses (Lu 17:37 & Mt 24:28) to be understood differently from how the WT interprets them.


"Where" Is What?

In Luke, the 'eagles/vultures' saying is preceded by the disciples question of, "Where?" (Lu 17:37) And immediately preceding the question "where?" is Jesus' saying that 'two men/women' will be 'sleeping/grinding' and that one will be 'taken' and one 'left/abandoned.' Thus, if one takes the "where?" as referring to the 'men/women who are taken', then, one could think that the disciples were wondering "where" the "men/women" were being taken to. And by extension, if those "taken" equate with Jesus' disciples, then, that would make the WT's explanation seem more plausible. But there is still the problem with translating "eagles" as mentioned above. There is also another problem with thinking that the two men/women sleeping/grinding is what the "where" was referring to:

It is possible that the disciples are asking "where?" in connection with the whole sequence starting at Lu 17:22ff. In this instance the "where?" would be referring to 'where this judgment scenario was going to take place?' (which included a 'revealing of the Son of Man' (Lu 17:24, 30), the saying about 'lightning' (Lu 17:24), a sudden life or death 'fleeing' (Lu 17:31-33 ), a Divine judgment similar to that of Noah's and Lot's time (Lu 17:26-30), as well as the threat of deceivers (Lu 17:23).

The reason this is possible is that in Matthew there is described a need for a sudden fleeing (Mt 24:16-20), an ensuing "great tribulation" of Divine origin (Mt 24:21-22), the warning about deceivers (Mt 24:23-24), the saying about the lightning (Mt 24:27), and then the saying about the "eagles/vultures" (Mt 24:28) The saying about the 'men/women sleeping/grinding' does not occur in this sequence. It is mentioned later on at Mt 24:40-41. The next sub-title below enlarges on this as to why Matthew's sequence is explanatory. Thus, in the parallel in Matthew, the eagles/vultures saying is unrelated to the men/women sleeping/grinding. This lends credence to the idea that when the disciples ask "where?" in Luke 17:37, they are not asking about the two people who are either taken or abandoned. Rather, they are asking about "where" this judgment is to take place.


Matthew Helps Explain Luke

The account in Luke 17:22-37 occurs somewhere around 6 weeks to 3 months (give or take) before the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24. Thus, if one sees the Olivet Discourse as enlarging on and/or explaining what the disciples heard in Luke 17, then, one would use the Matthew account to help explain the Lukan account, and not the other way around. This would favor the idea that the "where?" in Luke 17:37 was regarding the whole sequence starting in Luke 17:23ff, since the 'men/women sleeping/grinding' saying does not occur in the Matthew 24:16-28 sequence. Also, where Luke uses "body" (leaving open the possibility of a live body that eagles would prefer), Matthew definitely uses "corpse" (ptoma), which vultures would prefer.

Using the Matthew account to help understand the Lukan account would appear to rule out the idea that the disciples question, "where?" was about where the 'men/women' would be 'taken.'

The question of, "where?" may have been prompted from the fact that Jesus never mentions Jerusalem or the Temple in the discussion in Luke 17:22-37. Instead, he illustrates with 'Noah's days' (a worldwide judgment) and 'Lot's days' (a localized judgment). Those two disparate (in location) judgments may have led to the disciple's question of "where?" for the location of the judgment Jesus is describing in Luke 17. Notice that Jerusalem is first mentioned in connection with judgment in Luke 19:41-44. And even after that the disciples expressed surprise when Jesus mentions the destruction of the Temple later. (Lu 21:5-7) The 'eagles/vultures' saying in Luke 17:37 may have been a way for Jesus to answer the disciples question while saving the details for later. In effect, when the judgment starts there will be no question as to what is happening and where it is happening, just as the gathering of vultures leaves no question about what they are gathering for. (Not unlike our saying, "Where there is smoke, there is fire.")


How Mark's Account Helps

Note also Mark's account in Mr 13:14-23 which basically covers the same ground as Mt 24:15-28. Mr 13:23 ends that passage by saying, "Be careful! I have told you everything ahead of time." This would negate the need for disciples to gather in some future time to find out the truth, since "everything" was already available via the Olivet Discourse. (And especially so in connection with the first century judgment since it would happen within "this generation."

As an aside, note a similar sequence regarding the "faithful steward" parable: In Luke the parable is given by Jesus in response to a disciple's question. (Lu 12:41, 42-48) The question itself was prompted by a previous discussion by Jesus. (Lu 12:35-40) Later, Jesus repeats the parable and the gist of the discussion in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:42-51) without the question. (See this post for a comparison of the f&ds parable in the synoptics and how the later mention (Mt 24 & Mr 13) helps explain who is the intended audience. Links to further discussion of that parable can be found here.)


Bobcat

Notes:

1. In the Insight article on "Eagles" referenced above, under "Figurative Use," note how the paragraph in connection with Lu 17:37 and Mt 24:28 uses a form of "special pleading".

2. Poster coccus ilicis posted on the subject of the meaning of the Greek words soma (body; Lu 17:37) and ptoma (corpse; Mt 24:28) here. Her posts state that the two words are not interchangeable. Her post also states that Luke 17:37 was directed to the Pharisees based on Luke 17:20, which was then followed by her reasoning on how she thought Luke understood the passage. My reply to that post is here. The discussion begins at post # 10 (here) and continues, with a couple of exceptions, to post 20.

Get out of her
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#285 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Thank you Bobcat for your comments here and I particularly appreciated the scriptural references as well as the fact that you obviously gave this a lot of thought. Hopefully you care to consider my thoughts as well and if so I will say there are primarily two things that come to my mind after reading through your comments. But I want to warn you in advance that you might not be overly thrilled to hear them just as is often the case for me as well. Oh well. Hopefully none of us are here to have our egos tickled, cuz if so I think we came to the wrong place.

First of all I hope you can understand that I cringe every time I see my brothers and sisters citing or even referring to extra-Biblical materials in these scriptural discussions other than things like Bible dictionaries or historical documentation of scriptural events. I can only think of one occasion in which our exemplar referred to such things and it was only to expose how evil and corrupt it was, certainly not to offer it as a possible explanation of some particular scriptural symbolism. (Mr 7:10-13)

One of the very things that is being conveyed here with the scriptural symbols we are considering a this very moment is exactly what Jesus referenced there in John Chapter 6 when he spoke of this "feeding on his flesh and blood." (Joh 6:54) In this very same context he had already associated this concept with the "manna" that the ancient Israelites were feeding on in their 40 year sojourn through the wilderness. (Joh 6:48-51) Clearly Jesus was helping us understand here that this "manna" was a prophetic symbol pointing both to the "living" as well as the written word, and the fact that this should EXCLUSIVELY comprise our spiritual diet. (Isa 8:19, 20)

My biggest concern in this case is that as long as we continue to include literature other than the Bible itself in our spiritual diets and discussions, Jehovah will see us as continuing to "touch the unclean thing" that is spoken of also there in 2 Corinthians 6:17. Ultimately it is only Jehovah's holy spirit that reveals the "sacred secrets of God," (1 Cor 4:1) and the question that comes to my mind is how could he EVER actually bless us with this spirit if we keep insisting on touching this "unclean thing"? (Ge 40:8) But this actually brings me to the next point I wanted to discuss in response to your last post.

You see I still find overwhelming evidence in your last post here that you only continue to completely overlook the actual context of Jesus' words here when speaking of things like these "vultures" and this "carcass," and I will insist that this scripture I am referencing at the moment (2 Cor 6:17) is both in this EXACT same context and in fact is speaking of the VERY same things IN this context. Why would this matter for the sake of this particular discussion?

Just as was the case there also in Mathew 24 and Luke 17, the context here in 2 Corinthians 6 is all about these foretold spiritual deaths of God's nation as well as the subsequent cleansings and rebirths that always follow. The Corinthian congregation had completely failed to heed the letter that Paul had sent to them the previous year, namely first Corinthians and particularly the part about "removing the wicked man from among themselves." (1 Cor 5:13)

Now that the apostasy Paul had already been warning them about had by this time completely enveloped the Corinthian congregation, it was no longer an issue of them "removing the wicked man from among themselves." Quite to the contrary, it was now a matter of removing THEMSELVES from what at this point qualified as what WAS the Christian congregation in Corinth! (2 Cor 6:17) For any repentant ones to now remain behind in what would NOW qualify as the "disgusting thing standing where it ought not" or "great harlot," would mean not merely "touching" this "unclean thing," but actually WALLOWING in it!

The "getting out from among them" that Paul is now commanding and at the same time referencing in accounts like Isaiah 52:11 and Jeremiah 51:45, and the promised reward for doing so (namely this being "TAKEN IN" by Jehovah) is ALL ABOUT the VERY SAME THINGS that are being spoken of also there in accounts like Matthew 24 and Luke 17. In other words these ones in Luke 17 who are now "abandoned" as opposed to "taken along" represent the ones who now remain behind in what is now a completely apostate nation. The ones who are "taken along" or "taken in" (as Paul puts it) by Jehovah on the other hand are the ones who now "get out of her" and "flee" or "fly" like "eagles" or "vultures" to this "carcass" in the "wilderness." (Re 12:14) (Mt 24:15, 16, 38) (Lu 17:31-37)

Why are they now pictured with spiritually unclean symbols like a "carcass" and "vultures";? FOR THE VERY SAME REASON THAT THEY NOW NEED TO BE "TAKEN IN" BY JEHOVAH IN THE FIRST PLACE! Jehovah does not need to "take in" people WHO ALREADY BELONG TO HIM! What Jesus is actually doing there in verses 15 and 16 of Matthew 24 by pointing to Daniel 11:30-32 is reminding us that these "apostasies" involve the breaking of the kingdom or marriage covenant that QUALIFIED people as belonging to Jehovah IN THE FIRST PLACE! The moment that this covenant is broken with spiritual "harlotry," we no longer qualify as God's people and by extension are "carcasses" in a spiritual sense. This in turn is exactly why we once again are in desperate need for a "coming" or rebirth of the kingdom or nation. This is exactly what Paul is conveying when he says that before the kingdom comes the "apostasy" must "come first." (2 Th 2:1-3) There is never any NEED for a "presence of our Lord Christ Jesus" and its corresponding "day of Jehovah" if the marriage covenant has not been broken with spiritual adultery and by extension what WAS God's people now qualify as spiritual "carcasses" and "vultures."

These spiritual cleansings and rebirths or "baptisms of holy spirit and fire" ALWAYS begin with a "harvest of the firstfruits" before a general harvest or second "resurrection" (SPIRITUAL resurrection or otherwise once again being recognized by Jehovah as belonging to him) can even be possible. (Mt 3:11) (1 Cor 15:23) (Re 20:6) Just as Moses was initially the ONLY one to "flee" from ancient Egypt (40 years before the MASS exodus or GENERAL "harvest"), or just as demonstrated for us with the way that only a "LITTLE flock" initially "separated themselves" from the "great harlot" and began to gather around Jehovah's prophets PRIOR to the PUBLIC ministry that was launched in 33 CE, (Lu 12:32) (Mt 28:18, 19) it is ALWAYS the spirit anointed ones who are first to "catch sight" of the fact that a kind of "disgusting thing" is now "standing in the holy place." (Mt 24:15, 16)

In order for it to even be possible for someone to "get out of" the "great harlot" would mean that they were IN it and therefore PART of it! They have the unclean stench of this spiritual death ALL OVER THEM which means that when they "fly" out to the "wilderness" and encounter God's prophets, they do so essentially as "vultures" flying to a "carcass." (Re 12:14) EVEN THE PROPHETS will remain as "carcasses" until the renewed kingdom covenant is inaugurated with their blood! (Lu 22:29) (He 9:16-18) it is essentially the humble and repentant ACCEPTANCE of this extremely alarming spiritual condition and by extension the divine commands that come with it that ALWAYS now gives BOTH the prophets AND their disciples "LIFE," or otherwise now allows for Jehovah to "take them in." (Joh 6:54) (2 Cor 6:17) (Lu 17:34) (Isa 53)

Once again however this adoption of humankind on the part of Jehovah is not considered as having officially occurred until these "harvests of the firstfruits" are inaugurated with blood atonement. It is only at this moment of the resurrection of the prophets to the heavenly "wedding feast" that God's kingdom or nation is OFFICIALLY or legitimately considered by God as having "come." (Mt 25:10) This by extension means that God's appointed shepherding class as well as ALL of mankind who now subject themselves to their divine and now FULL "authority," (Mt 28:18) no longer qualify as spiritual "carcasses" and "vultures."

In other words Bobcat, I did not interpret ANYTHING here. Rather I demonstrated these points scripturally. Not one human on the face of this earth EVER had the authority to interpret God's word. (Ge 40:8) Just as illustrated for also in the case of the ancient prophet Daniel, our FIRST responsibility after "separating ourselves" from the "unclean thing" is to PRAY for the understanding of the "sacred secrets of God." This certainly does not involve looking for interpretations in places like "Ellicott's commentary" or the literature of the JW organization. (Da 2:17-19)

The moment we actually begin to UNDERSTAND the Bible, not only does it suddenly become much easier for us to DEMONSTRATE our understandings scripturally, it actually becomes our RESPONSIBILITY to offer them up to others we encounter here in the "wilderness," much like offering up a corpse to vultures. Yes it's all a very unpleasant picture, but it’s the reality; and as you yourself have been witnessing for years now, vultures generally don't seem very nice in the way they go about accepting their meals, do they? (Job 16:2)

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#286 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Sol,

I am afraid we just don't see eye to eye on what you called, "extra-Biblical materials". All I can say is, if you don't like them, don't use them.

To me, if they are useful, I use them. Where they aren't, I don't. And coming from a JW background where there is little exposure to ideas outside of what the WT presents, I find these "extra-Biblical materials" stimulating to the thinking process. They open up possible avenues of thinking and viewpoints that were hidden to us as JWs. Are they always correct? Of course not. Are they always wrong? Of course not. But they often present all or many of the views that exist on a topic or verse or passage. They allow not having to reinvent the wheel, so-to-speak.

I don't hold it against you that you prefer not to use them. But I see them as a resource.

On Lu 17:37 & Mt 24:28, I thought I was sticking with the surrounding context. It appears to me that you and I are in different universes when it comes to our respective viewpoints. If your theological framework works for you, fine. But it appears like a foreign language to me. Not like Spanish or German, which has things recognizable to an English speaker. But more foreign like Arabic or Chinese.

Kind of like this episode of ST NG:




Bobcat

Get out of her
Posts: 969
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#287 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

I understand Bobcat and I also appreciate that you are above getting into a heated argument over the subject. I realize of course that most of my positions on the scriptures sound very foreign to people and it would be very naive of me to assume that they would be welcomed with open arms. Clearly most of what I have to say flies directly in the face of basically everything we've been led to believe when it comes to the scriptures, regardless of what so called "Christian" background we might be from.

But then again, isn't that precisely the prophetic pattern we always find in the scriptures when God sends in his prophets after his people have fallen into complete apostasy? It certainly proved to be the case also in the first century just prior to the birth of the "kingdom of the son of his love" that occurred in 33 CE. (Col 1:13)

Before I move on to other topics I would nonetheless like to leave you with yet another scriptural passage to read over and meditate/pray on (if you don't mind) which covers this exact same "carcass"/"vulture" concept and once again in this very same setting or context of spiritual "conquering" or "killing" ("apostasy" or a broken kingdom covenant) we find also in accounts like Matthew 24, Luke 17 and 2 Corinthians 6:17. (Re 11:7 13:7) (Da 11:30-32)

This particular example is found in the 11th Chapter of Revelation in connection with a spiritual "conquering and killing" of what is identified here as Jehovah's "two witnesses." (Re 11:3, 7) This particular spiritual death of God's shepherding class is associated with the "6th trumpet blast" which would be putting it relatively close to the time period associated with the "last" or "seventh trumpet" that Paul refers to in connection with the approaching Millennial Reign. (Re 9:13) (1 Cor 15:51-53)

You might notice here that this concept of "carcasses" or "corpses" is once again associated directly with God's prophets in this period of complete spiritual defeat or overthrow. (Re 11:9) But more than that, these figurative "corpses" of the prophets are also once again associated directly with the "great harlot" or "great city." (Re 11:8 17:18) Yes for some strange reason the spiritual defeats of God's nation seem to keep being associated not only with spiritual adultery and a "divorcing" of God's "woman," (as if this "conquering/killing" somehow pointed to a broken marriage or kingdom covenant) but even with the "great harlot." (Isa 50:1) (Jer 3:8) (Ez 23)

This particular account however might actually be the very best one to help us wrap our minds around this rather distasteful prophetic picture of the anointed ones in these periods being equated to "eagles" or "vultures" gathering around "carcasses" in the spiritual wildernesses that these apostasies always create. This is because not only did Jehovah directly identify the spiritually adulterous relationship between apostate Judaism and Rome as the first century manifestation of the "great city" or "great harlot," but he went so far as to equate this resulting spiritual condition even with ancient SODOM! (Re 11:8)

Personally when I think of it from this perspective, the notion of qualifying as a vulture feeding off a carcass in the wilderness in these particular time frames seems a few steps up from remaining behind in the "Jewish" synagogues receiving my spiritual food from the chief priests, scribes and Pharisees.

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#288 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

I found a page (apparently of Jewish background) that describes Titus' siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE and the fall of Masada in 73 CE. Very interesting description of the final fight at the Temple as well as the end of the Zealots at Masada. The writer also mentions the effect of this war on the Jews on up to our time. (Compare Lu 21:24) The page can be found here.

Incidentally, the writer points out that the Temple fell to the Romans on the very same day as Solomon's Temple fell to the Babylonians about 650+ years before. The date was the 9th of Av


Bobcat

AmosAu2
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Re: Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (Point 1)

#289 Post by AmosAu2 » 1 year ago

Hi Bobcat,

You've done it yet again, brother. This is an excellent site that I'd not seen before.

I'd say that our interests might be quite close indeed.
I've signed up for their newsletter.

Regards, Amos.


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