Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

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John S
Posts: 1159
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#21 Post by John S » 2 months ago

i beg to differ with you both.

Revelation is plain as the nose on your face about this.

Revelation 6:1,2

Christ Receives the crown of Kingdom rulership in heaven

He Then....goes forth into battle in heaven as Rev12 shows. But on earth woes occur as the nations are plunged into the last days... the conclusion of the system or age.

This is the 'sign' Jesus wants us to be looking for, this is the end of Gentile Rulership because the Kingdom of God goes forth first to fight the heaven war and when that is accomplished the earth sees the Christ and his angels come to complete the mopping up operation.(Rev. 12)

All readers: only those with the Holy Spirit will appreciate these truths and others are not allowed to see it.

Bobcat
Posts: 3305
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#22 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

i beg to differ with you both.
That is your prerogative John S.

Revelation is plain as the nose on your face about this.
Some would differ with you on that. The fact that there are so many interpretations of it would seem to argue that it is not quite as 'plain' as some may think.

Revelation 6:1,2

Christ Receives the crown of Kingdom rulership in heaven

He Then....goes forth into battle in heaven as Rev12 shows. But on earth woes occur as the nations are plunged into the last days... the conclusion of the system or age.
In general I agree with you about this John. The main thing we differ on is WHEN this began to take place. For readers who might be interested, this post (and included links) discusses scriptural passages that, in my view, lead to the conclusion that Jesus began ruling as a king when he returned to heaven in 33 CE. And as John pointed out, the first action the newly enthroned Christ takes is to oust Satan from heaven. This post (and thread) discusses the scriptural indications of WHEN that took place.

On the phrase, "conclusion of the system of things," the WT equates this phrase with being synonymous with "the last days" (as does, apparently, John S). But for an analysis of every occurrence of this phrase, see this post.

This is the 'sign' Jesus wants us to be looking for, this is the end of Gentile Rulership because the Kingdom of God goes forth first to fight the heaven war and when that is accomplished the earth sees the Christ and his angels come to complete the mopping up operation.(Rev. 12)
We differ on this John. I am of the view that Jesus told his followers that there would be no sign for his return, and thus, they had to stay constantly awake (spiritually, of course). (Mt 24:42, 44; 25:13) In fact, how could Jesus give a sign for his return when he himself did not know when it would be? (Mt 24:36) In contrast, he was able to give a sign as to when the end would be for the Jewish nation that had rejected him. (Compare Mt 24:15 with Dan 9:27b; Compare Mt 24:34 with Jon 3:2, 4 and Mt 12:39)

The five foolish virgins appear to have thought that something (acting as a sort of sign) would alert them in enough time to be ready. (Mt 25:3, 6) They were very mistaken. (Mt 25:8-12)

As to when Gentile (and Satanic) rulership ends, I would say that Rev 11:15 and the 7th Trumpet would mark that point in time. Compare also this post that makes a comparison between the Trumpets of Rev 8-11 and the Bowls of Rev 16. If the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Bowl correspond in time, then, the end of Gentile and Satanic rulership occur when the "great earthquake" of Rev 16:18 is about to take place, which would also be when God "brings to ruin those ruining the earth." (Rev 11:18; See also this post for a further discussion of that.)

All readers: only those with the Holy Spirit will appreciate these truths and others are not allowed to see it.
Agreed. (Dan 12:10; 1Co 2:14)


Bobcat

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#23 Post by John S » 2 months ago

well, Bobcat...

i see at least you are realizing the Gentile times end when the lat prophesies are occurring.

All readers may review Luke 19 here to see Jesus did not receive Kingdom authority while on earth nor receive his crown, as you used Rev. 11:18, it was way off into future time, in fact...7 times according to Daniel.

notice what Jesus himself said while on earth about becoming the king:


11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

Bobcat
Posts: 3305
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#24 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

i see at least you are realizing the Gentile times end when the last prophesies are occurring.
I'm not sure what point you have in mind here or when you thought I believed the Gentile Times end. I know the WT holds that the 7th Trumpet is blown in 1914 CE. In this post, under the 2nd paragraph in the sub-title, "The Gentile Times" ─ How Long?, I give my reasons why 1914 makes no sense for being called, 'the end of the Gentile Times.'

Regarding the parable of the minas in Lu 19:11-27, I have seen you reference that parable several times whilst trying to say that the parable proves it would be a very long time before Jesus would be crowned as king.

In this post, under the sub-title, Some verses that one might use to object:, I have that parable listed, as well as some reasoning on it. The main point being that the reason the parable was given was because some "thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately." (Lu 19:11) This is stated as the purpose for Jesus giving the parable.

When the kingdom would "appear" is far different from when its king would be crowned or receive authority.

Additionally, the parable says, "when he returned, having received the kingdom ..." (Lu 19:15) Here is how many different translations render that verse.

The verse says nothing about at what point in the trip the nobleman receives the kingship. The parable only says that he goes to a distant land and returns after he received the kingship. (Lu 19:12) You are reading into the parable what it doesn't say. You are also reading the when of receiving kingly authority into the parable when the purpose of the parable revolved around when the kingdom was going to "appear."

Thus, on two points you are misapplying the parable of the minas, (1.) reading into it more than what it says, and (2.) applying it beyond its stated purpose.

That Jesus was crowned soon after returning to heaven:

Heb 10:12-13 says that Jesus, 'after having offered himself, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting for his enemies to be made a footstool for his feet.' The writer of Hebrews is referencing Ps 110:1.

The writer of 1st Corinthians also references Ps 110:1. At 1Co 15:25 he says, "For he [that is, Jesus] must reign until he [that is, God] has put all enemies under his [that is, Jesus'] feet."

By comparing these two verses one can see that "sitting at God's right hand" in Heb 10:12-13 is the equivalent to 'reigning' at 1Co 15:25. And thus, Jesus could tell John [about the year 96 CE] to write to the congregation at Laodicea and tell them, "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down [past tense] with my Father on his throne." (NIV)

There are a number of additional verses in the 2nd post in this thread (here) that also indicate that Jesus was already reigning after he returned to heaven.

But we have been here before John. I posted this reply mostly for the benefit of others. You believe what you want. And I will leave it to the reader to decide who may be encouraging doubt of the scriptures, and who isn't.


Bobcat

Kerry Huish
Posts: 259
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#25 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 months ago

Galatians 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Jesus rules by means of Jehovah's holy spirit over those upon whom this spirit is operative upon. He is an authorised channel for the holy spirit.

Titus 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

It was this way in Eden at the beginning.
The spirit that was operative upon Adam and Eve was originally via the Word or Jesus. It was not originally operative upon them directly from Jehovah.

When Adam & Eve sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, they came out from underneath of the umbrella of the Son and the spirit that was then operative upon them was directly via Jehovah.

A rupture had occurred.
When this happened the Kingdom that Jesus had was lost.

After that time, the only spirit that was operative upon ones on this earth was either directly from Jehovah or via Satan.

Yes, Satan was also an authorised channel for holy spirit and he too has had a Kingdom over the earth by means of Jehovah's spirit.

After Christ had made a purification for our sin, the spirit was then again poured out through him upon a select few from pentecostal 33 CE onwards.

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

So Jesus has had a partially restored Kingdom again since pentecost 33 CE.

Partially because since 33 CE Jesus' rulership over the earth has existed alongside that of Satan's and Jehovah's.

The Bible indicates that at a future time, and I believe this to be 1914, that Jesus became the sole channel for holy spirit with Satan being made subject to him. Since then Christ has been ruling in the midst of his enemies, most are currently oblivious to this change.

Psalms 110:2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”

After the last of Christ's brothers has been sealed then Jesus will take action against the whole earth resulting in the holy spirit becoming operative upon all and a global judgment beginning.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Of course, in the mean time you can believe and teach what you want...

But soon the trumpets will start sounding and by the time the 7th one has sounded the whole world will acknowledge these facts.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

This is not to say that Christ becomes King at the 7th trumpet, as has been shown, he has already been King for a very long time.

The 7th trumpet is in relation to the world acknowledging the fact.

Mathew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Kind Regards

Kerry

Victor
Posts: 50
Joined: 2 months ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#26 Post by Victor » 2 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
2 months ago

Yes, Satan was also an authorised channel for holy spirit and he too has had a Kingdom over the earth by means of Jehovah's spirit.
We should be careful in our travels to understand scripture that we do not go over the line. Your quote above goes over a line we should be careful not to go over.

(Matthew 12:31, 32) 31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 259
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#27 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 months ago

Victor wrote:
2 months ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
2 months ago

Yes, Satan was also an authorised channel for holy spirit and he too has had a Kingdom over the earth by means of Jehovah's spirit.
We should be careful in our travels to understand scripture that we do not go over the line. Your quote above goes over a line we should be careful not to go over.

(Matthew 12:31, 32) 31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
Don't be too quick to disguard all new things, test out the inspired expressions.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world

Some said simular things about some of Jesus' teachings: -

John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

They also mistakenly had him put to death as being a blasphemour, when in truth, he was no blasphemour.

_______


Do not the Kingdoms of the World stand placed at God's leisure?

Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves

Is not Jehovah the real ruler in the Kingdom of mankind?

Daniel 4:17 “ ‘The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’

So what role does Satan play in relation to the rulership of the earth?

John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

Is he not a channel a head through whom these things stand placed?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

Jesus said his Kingdom was not from this source.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

What exactly was the bad spirt from Jehovah that became operative upon King Saul?

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil a spirit from the Lord tormented him.

I stand by what I have said.

Kind Regards

Kerry

Victor
Posts: 50
Joined: 2 months ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#28 Post by Victor » 2 months ago

No problem.

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#29 Post by John S » 2 months ago

Oh no,

You must not ignore the implication in Luke 19. As a trip to a ,”DISTANT LAND”, always takes a long time and also there is the trip home! Add that time.

Can you Reject Jesus’ in many teachings ....the time factor that he would be delaying,.....and even the 10 Virgins......”while the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep.”

And what about giving the Minas and telling the servants to ‘do business until I come...”

...and the Jesus narrates: “EVENTUALLY when he got back after having SECURED the kingdom power...”, Luke 19:15

Oh no, don’t saddle me saying I MISAPPLIED the teaching of Christ here, because the point was well established He would be gone a long time, so, “ “ they were imagining the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.”.....that was the main point.

No, Jesus did not receive kingdom rule until as Daniel prophesied about the Kingdom , 7:21,22

“ I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them until the Ancient of Fays came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones TOOK POSSESSION of the kingdom itself.” See also vs 27

Daniel 2:44 also a premier scripture showing after all the Gentile Kingdoms rule then last thing is God’s Kingdom is “set up”...”it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to time indefinite”

So, there are no more Gentile kingdoms when the Kingdom is set up and judgment administered.

This did not happen in 33 very. And still is future as far as the Judgment of the nations part of the prophesy....and the crushing by the kingdom stone.

No, I have this right.

I’m no pro on many time prophesies, but I have read and re read all the kings of Judah and their last king is foretold to come seven times into the future, and each time is 360 years.

2,520 years from the last Judaean Kong’s rulership brings us the the One whom God appoints the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Lamb receives his throne and Crown and goes forth to battle and collect the fish, the sheep, the fruits, wheat, all together at the end. The harvest it’s called, is a “conclusion of a system of things”, or age.

When a cop graduates up the ranks to become a new detective, he learns one lesson immediately.

When looking for clues as to ‘whodunnit’?

If you can place the perp at the scene of the crime, that pretty much fills the bill.

‘There are NO COINCIDENCES’ is coptalk for yeah, it’s him alright.

1914 came, and guess what? All Hell broke loose.


Coincidence?


I don’t think so.

Bobcat
Posts: 3305
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#30 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

John S said:
Oh no,

You must not ignore the implication in Luke 19. As a trip to a ,”DISTANT LAND”, always takes a long time and also there is the trip home! Add that time.

Acts 1:3 Jesus presents himself alive during the 40 days after his death and resurrection.

Acts 1:9 Jesus starts his trip to heaven about 10 days before Pentecost, 33 CE.

Acts 2:32, 33 On Pentecost of 33 CE Peter points out that Jesus was already at the right hand of God, which to Peter, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit was proof of. (Compare Jn 16:7)

Thus, the trip from Earth to God's right hand in heaven took 10 days or less. Perhaps, John, you should start paying more attention to the scriptures first, rather than your supposed 'implications.' (See here for additional discussion on the timeline after Jesus' resurrection.)

As 1Pe 3:22 says, [Jesus] is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven [in 10 days or less], and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him [that is, according to Peter, he had already gained a huge amount of ruling authority]. (Compare Mt 28:18)

Like I said, John S, you are drawing incorrect conclusions from the parable of the minas.


Bobcat

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