Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

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Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#12 Post by Bobcat » 5 years ago

What follows was copied from someone's (not mine) post on another board. It provides conclusions about what the NT says about Jesus' parousia vis-a-vis what the WT teaches about it:

[WT] teaches JWs that Christ's presence began invisibly in 1914. They also teach that the start of Christ's presence coincides with the start of the last days. Whether you believe in the bible or not, Watchtower claims these teachings come from the bible. So does the bible actually agree with them? Let's see how certain bible texts expose their teachings as being completely at odds with what the bible actually says.

1. According to the Bible Christ's presence will not be a secret event that only a privileged few will see or discern.

Jesus indicated that it will be obvious to all when he compared it to lightning that lights up the entire night sky.
Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.+ 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence* of the Son of man will be. - Matthew 24:25-27

2. According to the Bible the last days begins before the start of Christ's presence.

At 2 Peter 3:3,4, the bible mentions ridiculers living during the last days and asking where is the promised presence. According to JW theology it means that the ridiculers are living during the very presence that they're asking about! If the JWs were correct then this would be a very noteworthy irony calling attention to the spiritual ineptitude of the ridiculers. The irony surely would not have escaped the attention of the inspired bible writer. He surely would have exposed this great folly of the ridiculers in subsequent verses. He does not! The bible writer implicitly agrees with the ridiculers' assumption that the presence has not yet started and is future. See 2 Peter 3:9 and the next point.
First of all know this, that in the last days [during christ's presence, according to JWs] ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires+ 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?+ Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” - 2 Peter 3:3,4

3. According to the Bible the start of christ's presence brings an end to the opportunity to repent. The presence starts destructively - not as a century of invisible rule from heaven.

In response to the ridiculers' question about the delay to the start of the "promised presence", 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not slow in fulling the "promise" - the promised presence - but is patiently giving people time to repent because he does not want any to be destroyed. Thus the bible is indirectly implying that when the presence does begin it will be too late to repent as it would be the time for the wicked to be destroyed. If the presence really did begin in 1914, Armageddon would have started then and wicked people would not be still around a whole century later, still having an opportunity to repent. Thus the 1914 presence is at odds with 2 Peter 3:9
Jehovah* is not slow concerning his promise,+ as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

4. According to the Bible the start of Christ's presence brings an end to anointed christians' patient endurance of trial and adversity in this world.

James 5:7 tells christians to exercise patience "until" the presence of christ. What does he mean by "until" but that their need for patience ends with the start of christ's presence. And yet, anointed JWs are still exercising patience more than 100 years after the supposed start of christ's presence in 1914. Clearly christ's presence could not have started in 1914.
Be patient then, brothers, until the presence of the Lord.+ Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive. - James 5:7

5. Jesus told his followers of events that indicate to them that his presence is near - not that his presence is here, as JWs falsely teach.
Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. - Matthew 24:33
Thus a careful study of what the bible says exposes the JWs' 1914 invisible presence teaching to be a concept that is alien to the bible - a concept that is not hinted at by Peter or any other NT writer. In fact, a reading of 2 Peter chapter 3 reveals that the bible implicitly equates the start of the presence with armageddon.

Whether you believe the bible or not JWs believe it and profess to base all their teachings on it so its good to know which scriptures refute the bogus 1914 teaching so we can use it to expose Watchtower's teaching as being unbiblical.

Incidentally, where this quote uses "JWs," it would be more accurate to say "WT," as not all "JWs" accept what the WT teaches.


Bobcat

Marina
Posts: 2140
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#13 Post by Marina » 5 years ago

Hi Bobcat

Thanks for posting all that research. Also I totally agree with what you said here:-
bible implicitly equates the start of the presence with armageddon.
Hope you find this interesting. Ages ago I researched Parousia and I think I found the Hebrew word for it in Psalms 21:9. If I am correct the word is ‘pan’ and it means ‘face’.

In the NWT it reads

Psalms 21:9 “You will constitute them a fiery furnace at the appointed time for your attention (paneka).”

In Jay Green’s Hebrew Interlinear it reads:-

Psalms 21:9 “You shall set them as a fiery furnace in the time of Your presence

If you compare the word paneka with 1 Kings 7:48 you can understand why it means face:-

1 Kings 7:48 -And Sol′o·mon gradually made all the utensils that pertained to the house of Jehovah, the altar of gold and the table on which was the showbread…

showbread’ or ‘bread of Presence.’ Hebrew le’chem happanim; literally bread of the faces; Vg ‘the loaves of presentation.’


The NWT cross references Psalms 21:9 to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 where it explains that:-

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 “in a flaming fire he brings vengeance…at the revelation of the Lord Jesus”

By that scripture you can cross references to Luke 17:30

Luke 17:30 “the same way it will be on the day when the Son of man is to be revealed.”

Take into account 2 Peter 3:12 which the WTBTS interprets as Armageddon

“awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah through which the heavens being on fire will be dissolved and the elements being intensely hot will melt!”

And that links to Matthew 24:39

“…so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Marina

Marina
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#14 Post by Marina » 5 years ago

This also seems relevant - so I will put it in here

Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy! – An analysis of how the argument is put together to say that the Parousia since 1914 means that Jesus has been standing since 1914 and that this standing means taking up royal power.

*******************************************************************************************
(p288 of Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy! paras 4-5)

*** dp chap. 17 pp. 288-289 pars. 4-6 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

Daniel 12:1 reads: “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.” This verse foretells these two distinct things regarding Michael: one, that he “is standing,” suggesting a state of affairs that extends over a period of time; two, that he “will stand up,” suggesting an event during that period of time. First, we want to know the period when Michael is “standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” Recall that Michael is a name given to Jesus in his role as a heavenly Ruler. The reference to his “standing” reminds us of the way that this term is used elsewhere in the book of Daniel. It often refers to the action of a king, such as his taking up royal power.—Daniel 11:2-4, 7, 20, 21.

It is evident that the angel was here pointing to a period of time specified elsewhere in Bible prophecy. Jesus called it his “presence” (Greek, pa·rou·si′a), when he would rule as King in heaven. (Matthew 24:37-39) This time period is also called “the last days” and “the time of the end.” (2 Timothy 3:1; Daniel 12:4, 9) Ever since that period began in 1914, Michael has been standing as King in heaven.—Compare Isaiah 11:10; Revelation 12:7-9.
****************************************************************************************

Note this particularly in the above extract
“The reference to ‘standing’ reminds us of the way the term is used elsewhere in the book of Daniel. It often refers to the action of a king, such as his taking up royal power.” Daniel 11:2-4, 7,21
Now examine the use of the word stand more carefully in the book of Daniel itself:-

Daniel 12:13 ends with the promise that Daniel ‘will stand up for his lot’. This is not interpreted as Daniel ruling.
Neither is Daniel 1:4 where Nebuchadnezzar asks for royal offspring who have the ability ‘to stand’ in the palace of the king.
Daniel 11:1 the angel speaking to Daniel says that he (the angel) was standing, not as a king, but as a strengthener and a fortress to Darius.

Just to compare here are some other examples of the word stand, this time from the book of Isaiah:-

Isaiah 21:8 Upon the watchtower of Jehovah I am standing
Isaiah 47:13 You have grown weary now with the multitude of your counsellors. Let them stand up and save you.
Isaiah 3:13 Jehovah is stationing himself to contend and is standing to pass sentence upon people.

Now look back at quoted part of the extract again and note the scriptures cited to support the interpretation:-
Daniel 11:2-4, 7,21


The scriptures used to support the statement about standing, meaning to take up royal power, are all from Daniel chapter 11 which is the prophecy about the king of the north and the king of the south taking royal power from one another. So there are few examples in chapter 11 of the word standing meaning anything other than taking up royal power, except verses 1 and 11.

Ignoring the fact that 1914 is incorrect, I am not convinced that the explanation about standing meaning ruling is even reasonable. It might mean that but given its range of meaning you can't say it is evidently so without a better cross reference.
Marina

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#15 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Bumping this thread because today's WT Study (2-11-18) makes the statement (in par. 16) that 'JWs have proven Scripturally that Jesus' parousia began in 1914.'

The opening posts in this thread show otherwise.

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#16 Post by Bobcat » 11 months ago

Some time back Apollos started several threads dealing with individual parts of what the WT calls the 'composite sign' of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. In this post I am making an index to those threads for easy reference. The WT claims that the various parts of this composite sign form the indication of when Jesus' parousia begins. For the WT, Jesus' parousia means the start of his kingdom rule. (But see this post for a study of how parousia is used in the NT regarding Jesus. And this post for scriptural indications of when Jesus began ruling.)

Below are the links to the several threads in the series. One of them does not have a thread yet:
Wars and Rumors of Wars . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 24:6, 7; Mk 13:7, 8; Lu 21:9, 10

Food Shortages . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 24:7; Mk 13:8; Lu 21:11

Pestilences . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lu 21:11

Earthquakes & Great Earthquakes . . . . . . . . Mt 24:7; Mk 13:8; Lu 21:11

Fearful Sights, From Heaven Great Signs . . . .Lu 21:11

Increasing of Lawlessness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 24:12

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#17 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

On the subject of inaugurated eschatology, see the linked video presentation in this post.

Generally speaking, "inaugurated eschatology" is a technical term used to describe the kingdom of God starting from small beginnings, affecting only willing subjects (Mt 13:31, 32), but eventually imposing itself on all of mankind, regardless of willingness. (Mt 13:40, 41)


Bobcat

Victor
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#18 Post by Victor » 2 months ago

It is a pity to see the Watchtower so set on what its predecessors have taught. The invisible presence teaching is a child's teaching set in motion when the expected physical presence of Christ in the 1800's failed to materialize. As is well known the word presence never refers to invisibility. It can only be "invisible" to those who in desperation want it so and so badly that like a piece of foam thrown to a drowning man they grab hold for dear life. The Watchtower will not let go of this treasured teaching even in the face of scriptural reality.

As for when Jesus began ruling the Watchtower says 1914-1919, there is no evidence that Jesus began ruling then. There is evidence of a great shift in world history in 1914 but not of Jesus ruling. There is also no evidence of Jesus ruling on earth after his resurrection. Ruling in heaven he is but on earth, no, not yet. Otherwise we must admit to another "invisible" teaching that Christ's rule on earth is an invisible ruling.

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#19 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Victor,

1914 was certainly a world shaking year. But you might find an interesting and little bit different perspective regarding that year in this thread.


Bobcat

Victor
Posts: 50
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#20 Post by Victor » 2 months ago

Thanks Bobcat.

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