Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

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Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#61 Post by Bobcat » 5 months ago

Linking to a thread discussing the WT's God's Kingdom Rules publication: Here.

This post and link is referenced in post # 2 in this thread (here), in the "additional points" section near the bottom of the post. (If you use Chrome browser, this link may take you directly to that part of the post.)

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#62 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

I reformatted the OP a bit (here) and added a sub-section on the meaning of parousia and erchomai and how to distinguish between them, even when they are rendered similarly.


Bobcat

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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#63 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Meaning of ἐπιφανείᾳ (Epiphany)

This post is for the purpose of analyzing the Greek word ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia; Strong's # 2015), often rendered, "appearing, manifestation, glorious display."

As you will see in the analysis below, it has a strong relationship with the Greek word παρουσίας (parousia or presence), for which see this post.

For more on the meaning of this term, see Additional Note # 3 at the bottom of this post.


Analysis of ἐπιφανείᾳ (Epiphany)

The word only occurs 6x in the NT. Here is a listing of each occurrence with some comments:
1. 2Th 2:8 "... the manifestation of his parousia"
See this post for some discussion of its use and meaning in this verse. As can be seen in this verse, its meaning is not necessarily synonymous with parousia.

2. 1Ti 6:14 "... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ"
The context shows it to refer to a yet future event.

As an aside, on 1Ti 6:14-16 and the meaning of "immortality" and who "alone has immortality," see this thread and included links.

3. 2Ti 1:9, 10 "... [God's] own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus"
"The appearing (ἐπιφάνεια) is a reference to Jesus incarnation [i.e. his 1st century advent]. The term can refer to Jesus' second coming (1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 4:1; Tit 2:13), but this context demands the incarnational reference. The revelation Paul described was given in Jesus' teaching, but it appears supremely in his death and resurrection. Christ's appearance on earth made visible God's intent to save sinners (NAC-1, 2, Timothy, Titus; Thomas D Lea, Hayne P Griffin Jr; p. 192)

Interestingly, according to Heb 9:28, Christ "will appear a second time." This would imply that he "appeared" a first time also. But the Greek word here for "appear" is not ἐπιφανείᾳ (epiphany). It is ὁράω (horaó. Strong's # 3708), which can have the meaning of "to see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern."

4. 2Ti 4:1 "... and Christ Jesus, who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom ..."
“The [Roman] Emperor’s appearance in any place was his epiphaneia [“appearing”]. Obviously when the Emperor was due to visit any place, everything was put in perfect order. The streets were swept and garnished; all work was up-to-date. The town was scoured and decorated to be fit for the epiphaneia of the Emperor. So Paul says to Timothy: ‘You know what happens when any town is expecting the epiphaneia of the Emperor; you are expecting the epiphaneia of Jesus Christ. Do your work in such a way that all things will be ready whenever He appears.’“[William Barclay, The Letters to Timothy, Titus and Philemon, p. 233]

5. 2Ti 4:8 "the Lord ... will award it to me in that day ... also to all who have set their affection on his appearing"

6. Tit 2:13 "... as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The context for both of these verses demands that the "epiphany" is referring to a future manifestation of Jesus.

Some other notes of interest:

1. The word is only used in writings attributed to Paul.


2. The word appears to have some overlap with the word parousia (presence), but cannot be exactly equivalent since it is used to describe an aspect of Jesus' parousia in 2Th 2:8. My take on it, from the analysis above, is that it more relates to the opening phase of the parousia.

Interestingly, the WT's 2013 Study Bible has a footnote regarding "manifestation of his presence" in 2Th 2:8 that says:
Paul here refers, not to Christ’s entire invisible presence, but to an event that will take place near the end of that presence.
The WT's reasoning is based on their idea that Jesus' parousia began in 1914 CE.


3. See also poster tslawson1's word study thread, which includes the Greek word ἐπιφάνεια (epiphany), here.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#64 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Cross-linking to a thread entitled, He Has the Whole World in His Hands: Here.

I needed it linked to here so that I could reference it in post # 2 (here), down in the "additional points" section (# 16) at the bottom of the post.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#65 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Cross-linking to a post with links regarding the "last days": Here.

This post examines every NT phrase that is equivalent to "the last days," as well as a few others.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#66 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Cross-linking to a post with links on the "woman" of Revelation chapter 12: Here.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#67 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A post on Heb 1:5 and some reasoning showing that Jesus was already crowned when the writer of Hebrews wrote: Here.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#68 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

This post was in answer to a question raised in this post. I put the answer here because that other thread is in the "Controversial" section of the forum.

************************
Here was the question:
Bobcat:

Can it be that Christ was King of God's Kingdom on earth until his death but upon returning to heaven he is King in waiting in heaven while the fire he lighted produces its intended effects?

While the King is absent can it truly be said the Kingdom of Heaven is on the earth, present on the earth? Until the King returns is he not absent, not present?

Hi QFR,

You might be thinking of "heaven[s]" (in the phrase, "kingdom of [the] heaven[s]") from a locational or spatial point of view. But Matthew, who uses this phrasing most, uses it interchangeably with the phrase, "kingdom of God." He uses "heaven[s]" in this phrase as a sort of Jewish euphemism for "God," not as a way of making a distinction between heaven and earth.

You might find this post about the use of the term "kingdom" informative. Also, the links in this post which lead to discussions of the term Inaugurated Eschatology, impact what you talked about. (And just as an aside, we had a thread discussing "heaven" [singular] versus "heavens" [plural] here.)

That Jesus was ruling after he left earth, and not just 'waiting to rule,' as proposed by the WT, one could compare Heb 10:12-13 with 1Co 15:25. Both passages are alluding to Ps 110:1. The Hebrews passage has Jesus 'waiting at God's right hand' until his enemies are subdued. The Corinthians passage expresses the need for Jesus to 'reign' ("rule as king" - NWT) until that same thing happens. (Additionally, Heb 2:8-10 acknowledges that, at the time of writing, "all things" had not yet been put under Jesus' control, but that he was at that time "crowned.")

If both applications (Heb 10:12-13 & 1Co 15:25) are inspired, then, 'sitting at God's right hand' in Heb 10:12-13 would be the equivalent of "ruling as king" in 1Co 15:25.

Incidentally, in the Heb 10:12-13 passage, the writer of Hebrews is making the point that Christ has finished his work of offering a sacrifice for sins, in contrast to the Jewish high priests. (Heb 10:11) With that work finished, Christ 'sits down at God's right hand.' Heb 5:5-6 says that when God "glorified" Jesus, he was designated as a "high priest in the order of Melchizadek." This would make Jesus a king-priest (in contrast to the Jewish high priests). (See also Heb 5:7-10) Otherwise, he wouldn't actually be a "high priest in the order of Melchizadek."

Another scripture whose misapplication might cloud the this topic is Rev 20:4. People sometimes use it to say that Jesus will rule for a thousand years. But the verse doesn't say that Jesus will rule for one thousand years. It says that his followers come to life and rule with him for a thousand years. The thousand years is the length of time that his disciples reign with him.

At any rate, that is how I understand things. But as they say, "your mileage may vary."


Bobcat

QuestionsFromReaders
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#69 Post by QuestionsFromReaders » 1 week ago

Bobcat:

That Jesus was ruling after he left earth, and not just 'waiting to rule,' as proposed by the WT, one could compare Heb 10:12-13 with 1Co 15:25. Both passages are alluding to Ps 110:1. The Hebrews passage has Jesus 'waiting at God's right hand' until his enemies are subdued. The Corinthians passage expresses the need for Jesus to 'reign' ("rule as king" - NWT) until that same thing happens. (Additionally, Heb 2:8-10 acknowledges that, at the time of writing, "all things" had not yet been put under Jesus' control, but that he was at that time "crowned.")

Is there evidence on earth that Jesus today is ruling on earth? Does the whole earth bow to his kingship and rulership? Does wearing a crown in heaven translate to ruling with that crown on earth?

Does the Watchtower's invisible presence of a ruling king make sense when Christ himself said not to look for him in an inner chamber (unseen) or follow someone who says here is the Christ?

Have the Christian churches these last 2000 years shown themselves to be ruled by their King?

How can we say Jesus is King on the earth, Jesus reigns on the earth, when there is no congregation who is directly led by God's spirit, no individual who is directly led by God's spirit, no man who can prove himself to be anointed with God's spirit, baptized in the spirit, as Jesus himself promised he would do?

Does a reigning king have no country? Does a reigning king have no ambassadors of record directly appointed by him to do his bidding?

Are we not waiting for the Return of our King?

johnamos2.0
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Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#70 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

If both applications (Heb 10:12-13 & 1Co 15:25) are inspired, then, 'sitting at God's right hand' in Heb 10:12-13 would be the equivalent of "ruling as king" in 1Co 15:25.
People sometimes use it to say that Jesus will rule for a thousand years. But the verse doesn't say that Jesus will rule for one thousand years. It says that his followers come to life and rule with him for a thousand years. The thousand years is the length of time that his disciples reign with him.



How is it that so many do not understand that?

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