Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#51 Post by Bobcat » 5 months ago

Hi David,

That is an interesting take on things. Would 1Co 15:26 modify/adjust your view at all?

Comparing with Jn 16:7-11 and 12:31, Jesus' conquering (or "overcoming") could be said to have laid the basis for the complete elimination of sin, with the complete elimination to come at a later point in time, just as it has laid the basis for the eventual removal of the world and its ruler.

But more than just 'laying the basis for it,' it also made possible the New Covenant which gives Jesus' disciples the means to 'conquer the world.' (1Jn 2:13-14; 4:4; 5:4-5) And Jesus' conquering also made possible the casting out of Satan (Rev 12:7-10), which is a prelude to him being eventually confined (Rev 20:1-3) and then destroyed altogether (Rev 20:10).

Rev 12:10 NET equates the casting out of Satan as an evidence that 'the ruling authority of [God's] Christ has come.' So that, what time period one understands Satan to have been 'cast down,' that same time frame (or thereabouts) should also mark about when Christ began ruling. (For which see here.)

This post shows the timeline for when Jesus came to be at God's right hand in heaven. It can be narrowed down to within a window of ten days.

(By the way, I put all these links in place mostly for visitors to the site. It allows them to delve into some of the research here to whatever extent they want to.)


Bobcat

Dajo1
Posts: 348
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#52 Post by Dajo1 » 5 months ago

This list of scriptures from post #1 is worthy of consideration.
Mt 24:27 The parousia would be something universally recognized, not something seen only by a select few.

Mt 24:37, 39 Parousia illustrated with comparison to "days of Noah" (leading up to the flood) and with destruction by the flood. And with Jesus' "coming" that the disciples had to be ready for. Thus, the question, would the disciples have to be on the watch for 'the last days' (compared to the days before the flood') or with Jesus' coming (compared with the flood itself)? The WT takes parousia to refer to both the 'the days leading up to and also the destructive end.

1 Cor 15:23 Described as the time of the resurrection.

1 Th 2:19 Related to Jesus' "coming" and the disciples being vindicated.

1 Th 3:13 Described as a time when the disciples would hopefully be rewarded for their faithfulness.

1 Th 4:15 Described as a time of being rewarded and the resurrection of dead Christians.

1 Th 5:23 Described as a time when the disciples would hopefully have been found faithful.

2 Th 2:1 As a time for being 'gathered to our Lord Jesus' (implying resurrection)

2 Th 2:8 The "manifestation of his presence." A time for 'doing away with the man of lawlessness.'

Jas 5:7, 8 The context indicates it is a time when Christians can expect to be rewarded for their "patience."

2 Pet 1:16 Linked with Jesus' "power" and the fulfillment of prophecy.

2 Pet 3:4 The context links it with a coming destruction by God (compared with flood of Noah). Compare this with Mt 24:37-39. Peter was present at the Olivet Discourse. So this verse here would give an indication of how Peter understood Jesus in Matthew 24:37-39. Here (in 2Pet 3:4), Peter connects Jesus' parousia with the flood, not the time leading up to the flood. (2Pe 3:5, 6, 7)

2 Pet 3:12 "presence of the day of the lord" (or Jehovah - NWT) in which the heavens will pass away . . . Note again Peter linking parousia with a coming destruction, not the time leading up to it.

1 Jn 2:28 Linked with a coming judgement and being rewarded if found faithful.

In all of these verses, the idea that Jesus begins ruling or is crowned at or during his parousia is missing, or has to be read into the verses.
You also asked-
That is an interesting take on things. Would 1Co 15:26 modify/adjust your view at all?
It harmonises with how I understand things to be. Yes that hasn’t been finalised yet in the absolute way... however you also noted that it could be said to lay the basis for the complete elimination of death. What he did and the effect it had (and has) on his brothers is such that he has always been a king (The King) in their eyes.

I hesitated to frame the future event as anything to do with him becoming a king. WT had that happen In 1914 to create this type of a thing leading up to an event - Armageddon. The NWT rendering of Matt 24:39 is even designed and worded to support their idea when it says. “and they took no note”. Seemingly to imply that we are in a presence now and people now have the opportunity to believe and act on the message JWs give them, join up and be saved. Whereas if you look at Most other bibles that is not the thought being conveyed at all.

I recall a Public Talk outline I had. - “Judgement Day- A Time of Fear or Hope?” it taught about times of judgements past, PRESENT and future. A lot of emphasis was put on the idea that people needed to listen to us in order to avoid the consequences of the tribulation and Armageddon.

Reminds me of when I was Catholic and the fear of hell. WT has the looming “end”! And... in order for it to work effectively it is helpful to have a “parousia” a time of “presence” so one can come on board while there’s still time.

Matt 24:39 actually describes the flood as coming suddenly. Very quickly. Out of the blue.

So my thought is - and it’s only my opinion/idea, is that is how it is: Jesus has been King from the first century. He is yet to be present and when he does manifest it will be very very evident.

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#53 Post by Bobcat » 5 months ago

Hi David,

Yes, we are in close agreement.
The NWT rendering of Matt 24:39 is even designed and worded to support their idea when it says. “and they took no note”. Seemingly to imply that we are in a presence now and people now have the opportunity to believe and act on the message JWs give them, join up and be saved. Whereas if you look at Most other bibles that is not the thought being conveyed at all.
A comparison of Mt 24:36-39 and 2Pe 3:3-4, 10 (NWT) shows how Peter understood what Jesus said at Mt 24:36-39. You might remember that Peter was one of the four that heard Jesus give the Olivet Discourse privately. (Mr 13:3)
(2Pe 3:3-4, 10 NWT) First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? ...

10 But Jehovah’s [Greek kyrios, "Lord"] day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

In these verses Peter equates the "promised presence" that the ridiculers are scoffing about with the coming of "the day of the Lord" in which world destruction breaks out. Note the contrast: 'Scoffers saying, "Where is this promised parousia" and Peter's assurance, "But [the Lord's] day will come ..." ', followed by a description of the removal of the 'heavens and earth.'

And compare that with Mt 24:36-39 where, 'no one knows when "that day" will come (Mt 24:36). It will be like in the days of Noah, they went about their own business' and knew nothing until the flood came and swept all away.' (Mt 24:37-39a) 'The parousia of the Son of Man will be like that.' (Mt 24:39b) Here the parousia is compared with "that day." And the time before it comes is "the days of Noah" when they pay no mind. (Compare also the use of and contrast made between "that day" and "the day" versus "those days" in Luke 17:24-30.)

And Peter's understanding equates with those verses quoted in post # 1 with how parousia is used elsewhere. It is never equated with the last days or Jesus' coronation. But always with judgment and reward and resurrection.

It harmonises with how I understand things to be. Yes that hasn’t been finalised yet in the absolute way... however you also noted that it could be said to lay the basis for the complete elimination of death. What he did and the effect it had (and has) on his brothers is such that he has always been a king (The King) in their eyes.

It is in line with the parables of the mustard seed and the yeast. (Mt 13:31-32, 33) The kingdom starts from small beginnings. (Here) Eventually it becomes very large.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#54 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

Linking to a post that has a linked reference regarding Mt 10:23 and its use of Dan 7:13-14 here.

This post is referenced as point # 11 in the "Additional Points" section at the bottom of post # 2 in this thread (here).


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#55 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

Linking to a post that discusses the meaning of the word "kingdom" in the synoptic gospels: Here.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#56 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

An interesting comment on the possible Biblical/Historical background to the transfiguration (seen on Reddit AcademicBiblical. The poster states:
Like much of the Gospels, [the transfiguration] seems to have been inspired by Old Testament narratives. Note 96 on page 122 of Adam Winn, The Purpose of Mark's Gospel, is instructive:
The transfiguration may find its background in the Hellenistic literature in which, after taking on a human form, a deity would often later reveal his or her true identity. For discussion or ancient literature that supports this background, see J. Behm, "μεταμορφόω," TDNT 4,757. Interpreters have also noted the parallels to Moses' encounter with God on Mt. Sinai (Exod 24), i.e., both Moses and Jesus are on a mountain, both hear the divine voice, both are illuminated, both events place significance upon "six days;" see Bruce Chilton, "Transfiguration," in ABD, 4.640-42; U. W. Mauser, Christ in the Wilderness: The Wilder­ness Theme in the Second Gospel and Its Basis in the Biblical Tradition (SBT 39; London: SCM Press, 1963), 110-19; Marcus, Way of the Lord, 80-93. Some also note the similarities between Jesus and heavenly figures in apocalyptic texts. See France, Mark, 351, who cites Dan 7:9, 1 En 14:20; 2 En 22:8-9; 3 En 12:1; Test. Job 46:7-9; cf Gnilka, Markus, 2:33; Pesch, Markusevangelium, 2:70. G. H. Boobyer reads this Markan pericope as a foreshad­owing of Jesus' parousia or heavenly return (St. Mark and the Transfiguration Story [Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1942], 48-87). Many interpreters (including some listed here) see more than one of these backgrounds behind Mark's transfiguration narrative.

On a side note, some think Luke uses the phrase "about eight days later" (Lu 9:28; in place of "after six days" in Mt 17:1 and Mr 9:2) because Luke's writings seem to have an affinity for the number "eight." Of the ten occurrences of "eight" (Greek ὀκτώ; Strong's # 3638) in the NT, the book of Luke and Acts use it seven times: Lu 2:21; 9:28; 13:4, 11, 16; Jn 5:5, 20:26; Ac 9:23; 25:6; 1Pe 3:20. (The Greek for "eighteen" is δέκα ὀκτὼ, literally, "ten eight".)

What makes this possibility all the more interesting is, in Luke 9:28 Luke specifically says ὡσεὶ ἡμέραι ὀκτὼ (literally, about days eight"). He seems to prefer to say "about eight" instead of the "after six days" of Matthew and Mark. But it is also possible that Luke just has a preference for seeing things this way, or, this may be a choice based on his initial audience (Theophilus) for some unknown reason. Or, as Constable's Notes mentions, "about eight days" "may reflect a Hellenistic way of referring to a week." (Itself a possible nod to Luke being a gentile.)

Another possibility, some think Matthew's and Mark's "after six days" is an allusion to "on the seventh day" in Ex 24:15-16, which Luke includes by mentioning Jesus' "exodus" in Lu 9:31. (Thus, relating Jesus' exodus to Israel's exodus from Egypt.)


This post is related to the discussion in post # 49 of this thread (here). This post is also connected to post # 2 in this thread (here), in the section, Some verses that one might use to object.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#57 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A post (and thread) where I have put together some research on Mt 24:39 and the phrase, "and they took no note" (NWT): Here.

I have a reference to this post in the "Additional Notes" section of the OP (here) since the context of Mt 24:39 relates it to Jesus' parousia.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#58 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

An older post with some BP links on the ride of the four horsemen of Rev 6: Here.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling - Tadua's Article

#59 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A page on Tadua's research site that discusses when Jesus became king: Here.

Tadua takes a somewhat different approach to the topic compared with the 2nd post in this thread (here). I put a reference to this post in the "additional points" section at the bottom of this post.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3716
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Parousia and When Jesus Begins Ruling

#60 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A post (here) discussing the phrase, "in the days of those kings" from Dan 2:44.

This post also has a similar discussion, but with additional references.

A reference to this post is made in post # 2 of this thread (here), in the section, Some verses that one might use to object.


Bobcat

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FriendlyDoggo and 12 guests