Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

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Phoebe
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#31 Post by Phoebe » 1 year ago

When I get a chance I'll post whatever else I find on the connection between Mt 11:28 and Jer 31:25.
I love this - thank you.

Something to meditate on today.
Look forward to reading more insights that you’ve unearthed.

lynchpin
Posts: 129
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#32 Post by lynchpin » 1 year ago

Bobcat,

That's beautiful and thank you.

I look forward to any more of your thoughts coming through; in particular the significance of the Jw stance on this matter.

Regards :))

Bobcat
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#33 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Here is part of what my research is leading to.

I'm hoping I can find more specifically on Mt 11:28-30 and Jer 31:25. But the above link will help to get the bigger picture and help tie these two passages together in a general way.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#34 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

If you go to this link on Google books you will find a passage from the NICNT-Matthew commentary on Mt 11:25-30 (R. T. France, pp. 440ff.

Therein is some fascinating commentary on this passage. None that I can see ties into Jer 31:25, but fascinating nonetheless. I suggest reading starting from the highlighted words (that I used to search for the passage) and on into the next several pages.

When you first go to the link allow several seconds for the pages to load. At first it will say some of the pages are not available, but they will load after a few seconds.

[Incidentally, while researching this I came across notice of R. T. France's death a few years ago (here). I never met or corresponded with him, but had very much enjoyed his writing style in the NICNT-Matthew commentary.]


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#35 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

A little more commentary research on Mt 11:28-30 here.

It is from the NAC-Matthew commentary (Craig L. Blomberg, pp. 194-95).


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#36 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

For any interested, below are links to threads on topics that are touched on in the 12/01/19 WT study about the great crowd:
Great Crowd, Abrahamic Covenant, and New Covenant

10 Gentiles Taking Hold of a Jew (Zech 8:23)

Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

A post on Being Anointed and Being of the 144,000 with numerous relative links.

A post that discusses the great crowd seen ministering in the naos ("temple sanctuary" of Rev 7:15): Here.

An analysis of the word grouping that includes "anointed": Here.

Bobcat

AmosAu3
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#37 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 year ago

Hi Bobcat and everyone,

I'm sorry but I've not been able to get things together yet regarding these 2 passages from Matthew & Jeremiah. I'll do it as soon as I can.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#38 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

I added a link in post # 36 above about the great crowd ministering in the naos in Rev 7:15 (conveniently left out of the WT article).

Look forward to whatever you have Amos.


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 1901
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Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#39 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Good morning Bobcat,

In my Bible at Jer 31:25, it cross references Ps 36:8, discussing satisfaction and spiritual abundance, being watered and thirst being satisfied.

I just figured I'd throw that in there to see what you say about it.


Stranger, (Is 12:3)

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Watchtower Study: Research, Notes, & Comments

#40 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

The WT Study of 12/15/19 (w19 10/15, p. 16 pars. 8-9) has the idea that Rev 16:21 refers to some sort of "hard" message that will "provoke" the nations into turning against God's people.

There are two points of note regarding this WT idea:
1. As has always been the case, this WT interpretation is based only on weasel words ("will likely," "we may well deliver," "we may proclaim," "in time, we will find out," "we will have to wait and see," "it seems . . .," and "quite likely . . ." ─ Yes, all those weasel words were in just these two paragraphs!).

Even the question for paragraph 8 was 'weaselly': "8. How will our message likely change in the future?" (The question for paragraph 9 was, "9. How may the nations react to our message, but of what can we be sure?")
Can WT hedge their bets any more than this? And then there is this:
2. The "hailstones" of Rev 16:21 occur after the disappearance of the "islands and mountains" of Rev 16:20 occurs. Even the WT interprets Rev 16:20 as referring to the destruction of the governments of this system. So that the "hailstones" of Rev 16:21, even if they did refer to some sort of hard message, they would be too late to provoke the national governments to wrath. The same order of events can be seen in Rev 19:20-21. Governments and their militaries first, populations next. The hailstones, if it were describing a "hard" message, would be too late to provoke the nations. (Similarly, Rev 6:14-17 has the same order of events. And Ezek 39:1-6 does also.)

For reference, these are the more recent WT publications that discuss this topic:
Rev16:21 it-2 1063; rr 198; w15 7/15 16; nwt 1795; w09 2/15 4; w08 7/15 7; re 234.

This list is right out of the WT publications index for 1986-present. One need only check these references to see that the entire basis for this idea is nothing more than the use of weasel words along with the subtle pressure put on JWs to voice no disagreement with their GB. These are the only things that hold this idea together. Scripturally, the idea is patently bogus.

On the other hand, the command to "be praising our God" in Rev 19:5, right after Babylon the Great's destruction, may be divinely intended to draw the attention of the nations against God's people. Compare how a subtle turn in direction during the Exodus had the same purpose. (Ex 14:1-4) It is curious that WT does not use this passage. It would be a much more scriptural application. In comparison, the bogus 'hailstone message' sounds more like someone's pet idea that WT HQ couldn't resist foisting on JWs.


For an even more detailed discussion of this hailstone = hard hitting message idea, see this thread.


Bobcat

Notes:

1. Does Isa 61:2 (which Jesus partly quotes in Luke 4:19) support the idea of a 'hard message' at the very end? Well, did Jesus withhold stating anything about the coming of God's "day of vengeance" against the disobedient Jews in the 1st century?

Even John the Baptist foretold a coming 'day of vengeance.' (Mt 3:7, 10, 12; Lu 3:7, 9) And on numerous occasions Jesus is recorded as warning about a coming 'day of vengeance.' (Mt 10:15; 11:20-24; 12:36, 37, 41-42; 13:30, 49; 16:4; 23:13, 15, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 33-38; 24:2, 14, 21-22, 30, 34) And on occasion, Jesus' message was 'hard-hitting.' (Mt 21:13, 15, 31, 43-46; 22:22, 29, 46)

In addition to these warnings, Jesus had his disciples flee from Jerusalem and Judea when they saw what was foretold at Mt 24:15. So one might ask, if the Jews were to receive a last minute 'hard-hitting' message, who was around to give it? The Christians weren't. That's for sure.

Just from this sampling of Matthew, one can confidently say that Jesus understood his commission in Isa 61:1-2 to include a proclamation of both the "year of goodwill" and the "day of vengeance." Once the "day of vengeance" began, Proverbs 1:24-32 began to be fulfilled.

In connection with Pr 1:24, Barne's Notes comments:
The threats and warnings of Wisdom are also foreshadowings of the teaching of Jesus. There will come a time when "too late" shall be written on all efforts, on all remorse. Compare Matthew 25:10, 30.

2. Where hail is found in the Bible. Here is every reference to hail in the Insight article on hail: Ex 9:18-26; Jos 10:3-7, 11; Job 38:22-23; Ps 78:47-48; 105:32-33; 148:8; Isa 28:1-2, 14, 17; 30:30; 31:1-3; Ezek 38:22; Hag 2:17; Rev 8:7; 11:19; 16:21.

Outside of Revelation, every reference to hail, whether literal or figurative, is portraying destruction of some sort. So that there is no scriptural precedence for a 'hail-like' message or preaching campaign. (For Rev 8:7 see this post where it discusses Trumpet 1. For Rev 11:19 and 16:21 see this post. If I am understanding things correctly, Rev 8:7 might be the only place where "hail" is related to speech in that the good news includes the "day of vengeance" as part of its message.)

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