Earth Forever?

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FriendlyDoggo
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Earth Forever?

#1 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 week ago

I noticed that most here believe that the earth will not be destroyed.

As seen here: viewtopic.php?p=22287#p22287

A position that I think is completely understandable, since we all leave a doomsday cult:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_cult

We don't want (and we don't need) fear Armageddon again.

But since I read the earth-forever article on JW facts, it's clear to me that this is impossible.

Specially the "Logistical Impossibility" and
"Scientific reality" parts.
In fact, if with God all things are possible, why did he create things in such a way that the sun is dying? Why not just create the universe in such a way as to last forever?
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php#L5

Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

It's easy for us to be sad for the planet because we live in good countries, but we need to remember about criminality, poverty, diseases, etc.

Worth reading:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues

In fact the bible says that the creation isn't happy with his actual state:

Romans 8-19-21 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Earth Forever?

#2 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

FriendlyDoggo wrote:
1 week ago
But since I read the earth-forever article on JW facts, it's clear to me that this is impossible.

Specially the "Logistical Impossibility" and
"Scientific reality" parts.
In fact, if with God all things are possible, why did he create things in such a way that the sun is dying? Why not just create the universe in such a way as to last forever?
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php#L5
Have faith in the re-creation and wait and see...

Revelation 21:5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

investigate
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Re: Earth Forever?

#3 Post by investigate » 1 week ago

Dyson spheres

Bobcat
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Re: Earth Forever?

#4 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

I'm with Kerry. Wait and see.

Human science has only been scientifically observing the sun and moon for a relatively short period of time.

For example, the JWFacts article mentioned that the moon is moving about 3.8 cm away from earth every year. But for how long have humans been making those measurements? At best only in the last few decades. Maybe even less. My point is that there could be cycles involved that are much longer than the time they have been making these measurements. The distance from earth to moon might grow for, say, thousands or millions of years, and then reverse for a similar period. Humans haven't been observing for long enough to know that.

In addition to that, there is, whats called, the "three-body" problem. (Here) This involves how gravity interacts between three bodies (earth, moon, and sun). As the Wikipedia article shows, it is a mathematical problem that has not yet been solved. So how does that affect the distance between earth and moon? If the problem hasn't been solved, then, there is no human who can say for sure.

As for the sun running out of fuel, I don't have an answer to that. But I also know that humans have only been making these types of calculations for a very brief amount of time and they are always learning new things. So for anyone to say for sure that the sun will run out in x number of billions of years ... well, like Kerry said, 'wait and see.' The One who made those things surely has an answer. And the answer may be bigger than just this planet, and just this star. And besides all that, there is Someone who has a lot of spare energy. A lot of it. And there is no rule that prevents Him from using it. (Dan 4:34, 35)


Bobcat

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Re: Earth Forever?

#5 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
The One who made those things surely has an answer. And the answer may be bigger than just this planet, and just this star. And besides all that, there is Someone who has a lot of spare energy. A lot of it. And there is no rule that prevents Him from using it. (Dan 4:34, 35)
Excellent reasoning Bobcat! Very nice post.



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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: Earth Forever?

#6 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 week ago

Kerry: The passage is very clear, everything new!

Bobcat: But and and all other passages?

A thing that aways boggled me on this teaching, and I ask to the brothers read the entire chapter:

Hebrews 11:1-2 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.(emphasis added)

"But we are all cleary seeing, through the illustrations!" I thought.

Think about it, why all the other churches doesn't have pictures of paradise?

I reach the same conclusion of Facts:

1 Corinthians 2:9 “But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.””
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Bobcat
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Re: Earth Forever?

#7 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Hi Stranger,

I made the statement:
As for the sun running out of fuel, I don't have an answer to that.
I may, in fact, have an answer for that. I just had to think on it a bit.

What I have in mind is the possibility that this earth is the first inhabited planet in the universe. Why that might be possible is the fact that God ransomed His Son to save us. If there were other planets with humans remaining faithful to God, then, there would be less need for God to pay such a high value ransom for this one. (And thus, when Adam & Eve sinned, there would have been no need for God to allow a sinful race to develop from them.)

But just assuming the possibility that this planet is unique at this point in time, think how that would change things.

That would mean that, of all the observations of planets and stars that have been made so far by humans, they have never yet seen a star like ours, that is, a star that had an inhabited planet. That would change everything.

To illustrate: Imagine a man observing many empty houses over a long period of time. He observes how they go into disrepair over time. Based on his observations, he might even be able to guesstimate when different parts of the house would become unserviceable.

So, a question: Would his observations and estimates be valid for the house he was living in? Could he apply what he observed to his own house? The answer would be, not likely. He has a motive for keeping his house in serviceable condition.

At any rate, that was my thought. And based on that, any human estimates about how long our sun and earth might last are simply guesses. They have never observed a star or a planet quite like ours.


Bobcat

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Earth Forever?

#8 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 week ago

Specially the "Logistical Impossibility" and
"Scientific reality" parts. In fact, if with God all things are possible, why did he create things in such a way that the sun is dying? Why not just create the universe in such a way as to last forever?
The problem with these statements is that:

1. The author doesn't believe in God and therefore doesn't believe in his almighty power
2. "Logistic impossibility" not only has the issue of statement 1, it seriously lacks imagination of the things that may be possible in the future.

The sun is dying, ok.. God just has to refuel it to keep it going, just like when the sandals never wore out for the Hebrews. Deuteronomy 8:4

But let's say Yehovah has set up a physical system in place... according to some scientists, they beleive our sun may be refuelled when this galaxy collides with Andromeda as our sun may collide with a much smaller sun, which may only serve to keep our sun going. Considering no man has been around long enough to observe the "seasons of space", only the seasons of Earth (moon phases, seasons, etc), what if we don't realise that our galaxy has been set to a timer also, to keep merging with other small stars, fuel sources of some kind, etc? No man has been alive long enough to observe what may be a billion year renewall cycle for all we know. Does space have seasons or cycles? Maybe we'll find out.


Population issues... considering space goes on forever, it would not surprise me if God plans for us to settle other worlds, he doesn't live here afterall, this physical realm is made for physical beings, what a waste of space (literally) if humans are bound here... if humans have children forever... and space expands forever... you catching my drift? Joining those dots? :)


Men are arrogant and think they know everything.. until they don't, lol.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Bobcat
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Re: Earth Forever?

#9 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Population issues... considering space goes on forever, it would not surprise me if God plans for us to settle other worlds, he doesn't live here after all, this physical realm is made for physical beings, what a waste of space (literally) if humans are bound here... if humans have children forever... and space expands forever... you catching my drift? Joining those dots? :)

For me (personal opinion of course), but Gen 15:5 answers that question. The WT believes that Gen 15:5 represents a then "unknown" number that eventually gets to be known as 144,000. But Gal 3:26, 27, 28, 29 argues differently. Eventually all living humans will be persons that have put their faith in Christ Jesus. Gen 15:5 provides a hint and the direction for where things are heading, and what God has in mind. Abraham was being told to look up at the future.


Bobcat

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Earth Forever?

#10 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
Population issues... considering space goes on forever, it would not surprise me if God plans for us to settle other worlds, he doesn't live here after all, this physical realm is made for physical beings, what a waste of space (literally) if humans are bound here... if humans have children forever... and space expands forever... you catching my drift? Joining those dots? :)

For me (personal opinion of course), but Gen 15:5 answers that question. The WT believes that Gen 15:5 represents a then "unknown" number that eventually gets to be known as 144,000. But Gal 3:26, 27, 28, 29 argues differently. Eventually all living humans will be persons that have put their faith in Christ Jesus. Gen 15:5 provides a hint and the direction for where things are heading, and what God has in mind. Abraham was being told to look up at the future.


Bobcat
Understandable. I believe in the literal fulfillment of a New Heaven and New Earth both, I believe people will be living forever on Earth as well as in Heaven, though I don't believe the 144k is a literal number.

I haven't read it yet, but I recently purchased a book https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Heaven-Ear ... 857&sr=8-1

The author expresses his views on why he thinks there will be an eternal paradise Earth and how he believes the churches shoved it aside in regard for Hellenism. What's even more interesting (and I don't think I'll agree with him based on my own Bible reading but I look forward to seeing his reasonings) is that he makes the claim that "nobody" will go to Heaven, at least not forever, but he thinks all Christians will be on Earth forever and such was God's restoration plan for mankind and Earth both.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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