Why is SATAN still around

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Bruno
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#31 Post by Bruno » 1 month ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
1 month ago

Bruno wrote:
1 month ago
The fact is no christian or christian organisation has ever been able to provide an answer to this problem. This doesn't mean there isn't an answer. It just means we don't know what it is.
And if we do not know then we should refrain from speaking foolishly and implying 'to others' that the creator is at fault, implying bad motive.

Proverbs 18:13 Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Do not be quick with your mouth, do not be hasty in your heart to utter anything before God. God is in heaven and you are on earth, so let your words be few.

Romans 3:4...Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

Regards

Kerry
Kerry,

Depending upon how you try and answer the question of why God permits horrendous evil, you may unwittingly via your conclusion implicate God. The JW’s attempt at answering the question does just this. The character of their god is one which holds the will of creation in its entirety, captive to the personal opinion of just 3 beings. According to JW theology, He then goes on to kill 99.9% of humans because he can't succeed in convincing them his way of ruling is more desirable than satans. Calvinists worship a god who they believe is responsible for the evil in the world. There are a lot of nonsensical gods out there.

https://denverseminary.edu/article/does ... calvinism/
"I grew up in a Christian tradition that was deeply steeped in Calvinist theology. Although once part of the Conservative Baptist Association, our little church in New England eventually broke away from that denomination and became an independent Bible church. Looking back, I would have called us four or four-and-a-half point Calvinists, the doctrine of limited atonement being the only questionable plank in the venerable TULIP acronym. Still, it was indubitably true that everything that occurred did so not only on account of God’s will, but explicitly by his creative decree; and that God had graciously out of his own love chosen the elect to save from this ruinous world, and that he drew them to faith in himself by his irresistible grace. If anything was true of the Christian faith, it was these things (along with total depravity and perseverance of the saints). When the traditional texts were presented as proof of these doctrinal dogmas, I could only nod in agreement, finding no fault in how Scripture was read and interpreted. It was upon this theological rock that I began to build my spiritual home, confident that I knew God’s Word and was acting in a wise and prudent manner.

Yet a funny thing happened during my late teens and into my early twenties. The more I sunk my Christian foundation into the bedrock of Calvinism, the more fragile and volatile my spiritual life and commitment to Christianity became. A number of unspeakable evils befell my family one after another; prayers went unanswered; God remained hidden despite earnest seeking; life floundered and became dark. I despaired. How could a God of love personally cause these horrendous evils and yet still be perfectly good? How could I trust God to be loving when he determined people to sin, and then held them accountable for what they could not have refrained from doing? I desperately sought to hold these disparate theological tenets in proper balance, but the tension tore me apart. Intuitively I knew that if God was the ultimate cause behind evil, then he was evil; slowly, and in a dangerously creeping way, I began to hate this God of Calvinism even while I outwardly mouthed all the right doctrines."
Karl

Get out of her
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#32 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Menrov wrote:
I am a father and I have a daughter. Imagine that one day a man breaks into the house, rapes and kills my daughter. I did not intervene to protect her as I wanted to allow people to be bad just to show I am right. And one day in some future, I will correct this event.
What do you think of this? Fair? Righteous? Sign of love (God is love)? Not one human or judge would give me a free pass in this case.
We are commanded to "render our sacred service with our power of reason" and as far as I'm concerned that is exactly what you are endeavoring to do here Menrov. (Ro 12:1) I don't fault you at all for that. In that same spirit however I would present a couple of additional thoughts for you to reason on in this case. Brother Huish already presented the first one I had in mind actually, and as unpleasant as it might appear to some at least on the surface, it is in fact perfectly scriptural as can be established with accounts like (Deuteronomy 32:5)

Yes your reasoning here begins with the premise that we are actually God's people, and basically that has not been the case since the rebellion in ancient Eden. I say basically because there were of course several times throughout our history that at least relatively repentant ones among mankind were formally brought into a covenant relationship with Jehovah. During these relatively brief periods of time they also did indeed experience his loving protection and care. As accounts like Matthew 23:37-39 point out however, not only would EVEN the divinely appointed shepherds of these people fail in holding to the terms of these "holy covenants," but they would do so "often." (Da 11:30-32)

Now with this thought in mind, if all Jehovah was concerned about was proving himself right as your above comments seem to suggest, then the FIRST thing we would need to consider is the question of why would he CONTINUE to bend over backwards to RENEW these broken covenants as he indeed has; and this even in spite of the fact that we continually demonstrate -"we do not want it"? (Mt 23:37) On ONE of these foretold occasions, among the prophets or "two witnesses" he assigned to assist him in renewing a broken covenant was even his most beloved angelic "son." (Joh 3:16) (Lu 22:28, 29) (Re 11:3) As a father particularly, I'm sure you can relate at least in some small manner to the degree of mental anguish Jehovah suffered in connection with this sacrifice. The thought I would encourage you to consider in connection with this is the following:

Would YOU be willing to endure witnessing your daughter experience the persecution, opposition, torture and murder that Jesus experienced AT ALL, let alone the fact that this sacrifice was essentially in BEHALF of the very same people who were INFLICTING these cruelties upon him? (Joh 11:50) Even more however, since the Christ would ultimately prove to be a "body of MANY members" and ALL of them would at some point be required to perform this same priestly sacrifice to share as fellow heavenly "kings and priests" with their "leader," what we are dealing with here is a God who has chosen to sacrifice even MANY children of his OWN for the sake of ones who ARE NOT his own, and who for the most part do not even "WANT" his loving protection and care! (1 Cor 12:12) (Re 5:10 6:11) (Da 9:25) But here is another thought to consider which Kerry once again was well justified to touch on.

As we know our creator made certain to warn our human forbearers of the consequences involved with rejecting his commands or otherwise his right as our creator to demand our obedience. There were VERY few commands involved in all of this (due to the fact that they were perfect at the time) and I'm certain even us sinful and IMPERFECT humans can agree that EACH of them should have been extremely easy to obey. (Ge 1:28 2: 16, 17) As we know it was DEATH that was identified as the punishment for this rejection of his rightful authority over us, and of course MANY unpleasant things are involved with this phenomenon. With this in mind I would pose one final question to you menrov and please try to appreciate that I do so with nothing but love and respect:

PARTICULARLY in view of what great lengths Jehovah CONTINUES to go to in his efforts to restore eternal life in perfect peace and paradise to humankind even IN SPITE of our rather ungrateful response to it, would it not really be rather presumptuous on our part to imagine he is required to make a liar out of himself so that we personally could recognize him as "fair, righteous and loving" (as you say) ? Would it even BEGIN to be our place to expect Jehovah to essentially change his mind about the consequences for disobedience that he had already openly stated in order to fit himself into OUR rather dismal standards or ideas of what would qualify as righteous and loving? (Isa 55:8, 9)

Respectfully, if you were to continue adhering to your current views on this topic, would it not really amount to a perfect example of what the Apostle Paul spoke of at Romans 10:2, 3 concerning those who fail to subject themselves to the righteousness of God in their efforts to establish THEIR OWN?

Agape love;
Sol

Stranger
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#33 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bruno wrote:
1 month ago
This doesn't mean there isn't an answer. It just means we don't know what it is. People's attempts at answering it, says a lot more about the kind of god they are prepared to worship. It is often said we become like the god we worship.
Time of advent unknown, but it is getting late in the evening! Just like the Wings of the Wind He's riding (Ps 104:3), God also created the Sea so that He can walk upon it.(Mt 14:25)

When the dirty work is done, all eyes will see the Glory. (Rev 1:7) Some will see the Fury. (Ro 12:19)

Perhaps Bruno, some here are just unwittingly partaking of portions containing a great amount of J&W Root beer, maybe it's the silver package copyright 2013 that keeps them reaching for it?


Stranger, (Lu 12:38)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilzvuie7Bks

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Bruno
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#34 Post by Bruno » 1 month ago

Stranger wrote:
1 month ago


Perhaps Bruno, some here are just unwittingly partaking of portions containing a great amount of J&W Root beer, maybe it's the silver package copyright 2013 that keeps them reaching for it?

Hi Stranger :D

The reason many people think they know the answer is because they haven't fully understood the problem. I suppose if it gets you through the day it serves a purpose.


https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/5 ... 00bwp.webp
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#35 Post by Bruno » 1 month ago

Get out of her wrote:
1 month ago

Would YOU be willing to endure witnessing your daughter experience the persecution, opposition, torture and murder that Jesus experienced AT ALL, let alone the fact that this sacrifice was essentially in BEHALF of the very same people who were INFLICTING these cruelties upon him? (Joh 11:50)
No, anyone who loved their daughter would take their place, would suffer on their behalf. You wouldn't create an angel and have him butchered on your behalf. And then claim "look how much I love you"
As we know our creator made certain to warn our human forbearers of the consequences involved with rejecting his commands or otherwise his right as our creator to demand our obedience. There were VERY few commands involved in all of this (due to the fact that they were perfect at the time) and I'm certain even us sinful and IMPERFECT humans can agree that EACH of them should have been extremely easy to obey. (Ge 1:28 2: 16, 17)
If this is true, and as you claim, it would have been easy even for even imperfect humans to obey, then there is no need to hold all of humanity hostage to the personal choices of 3 beings.
Your reasoning leads to the conclusion that we would all have chosen differently. It means Adam Eve and the snake were just odd balls. Your personal interpretation of the accounts in Eden creates an image of a god who is unloving and unjust.
Karl

Get out of her
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#36 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Bruno wrote:
No, anyone who loved their daughter would take their place, would suffer on their behalf. You wouldn't create an angel and have him butchered on your behalf. And then claim "look how much I love you"
We've been over this before Bruno and with all the accompanying scriptures, so I'll make this very brief.

It is simply not possible for an immortal spirit being to give up their life for someone, or they of course would not actually qualify as immortal. What is more, you yourself have just acknowledged that even in the case of sinful imperfect humans, they would most often CHOOSE to give up their own lives if it meant the protection of their children. This very thing has in fact been demonstrated time and again. How much more so then in the case of Jehovah? Once again he has in fact done something EVEN MORE distressing or difficult for the sake of ones who are NOT his children!

Bruno wrote:
If this is true, and as you claim, it would have been easy even for even imperfect humans to obey, then there is no need to hold all of humanity hostage to the personal choices of 3 beings.
Your reasoning leads to the conclusion that we would all have chosen differently. It means Adam Eve and the snake were just odd balls. Your personal interpretation of the accounts in Eden creates an image of a god who is unloving and unjust.
Unless you reject the Holy Scriptures outright, it is simply not a question of whether or not my statement was true. (Ge 2:16, 17) And if you indeed do, I struggle to understand why you would even be engaging in a forum that is based entirely on the Bible in the first place.

The issue here was of course that a much more intelligent, experienced and powerful spirit creature with a wicked agenda came into the picture at some point and greatly complicated things. Obedience on the part of Adam and Eve WOULD have remained easy if it were not for this very unfortunate turn of events. It is largely for the reason that Jehovah never intended for things to unfold in this manner that he from that time forward has been taking all the necessary steps to make atonement for this error and restore to repentant humans all that was lost to them in the Garden of Eden. (Jas 1:13)

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#37 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Some speculation of mine that might be related to this discussion: Here.

I can't see Jehovah being blamed. (Rom 3:4) Like Sol said, He is incapable of dying, and so, unable to act as a ransom. Or, for that matter, of being confined within a human body. (Compare 2Ch 2:6)

He also sees "the end from the beginning." (Isa 46:10) He only knows how he intends His universe to unfold, so that His viewpoint encompasses far far more than any creature. He also "knows all things." (1Jn 3:20) It is understandable that we, as humans, worry about how things might turn out, or why things have been allowed to unfold the way they have. Our limited knowledge and limited viewpoint lend themselves to undue concern. But trusting that God has the best of intentions for everyone can help us bide our time peacefully.


Bobcat

Marina
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#38 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

Trust, faith. It's a normal thing. Why wouldn't you trust the other person? Why wouldn't you trust those older than you? Those with more experience than you? After all you are just little child. Why you're just beginning to speak and think and know the difference between good and bad. Ahh.

One born every minute eh? The child has to trust from the beginning. But at some point you have to discern who to trust and what to trust. As you grow older, some find they cannot even trust their own parents.

Now if I were the Devil is the title of this short movie from 1965.

Marina

Stranger
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#39 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Marina wrote:
1 month ago
But at some point you have to discern who to trust and what to trust. As you grow older, some find they cannot even trust their own parents.

Although I never fully trusted the folks' taste in religion, I feel I was fortunate to have trustworthy parents who knew what it's like to be a Farmer, and that does I can honestly say, make a difference between right and wrong.

I, like many others, listened to Paul Harvey on my little radio round about lunch time everyday. Looked forward to hearing "the rest of the story" after wolfing down a couple of "Big Macs" racing back to the job through traffic, having a "good day".

I think this answers the question for a few why Satan is still around today. "(Let the viewer use discernment)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRDaPEaDJ7E



Stranger, (Gen 3:1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wda-XQwipds

AmosAU
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#40 Post by AmosAU » 1 month ago

Hi brother Stranger,

Love the farmer clip! Adam WAS the first farmer! That's a God given occupation. (Gen. 1: 26-28)

No wonder I feel really good when I get my hands in some good dirt in my vegie garden!!!

regards, Amos.

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