Revelation

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 728
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#361 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 weeks ago

Revelation
Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses part 2

In post 359 above, I said:
This is a lot to take in for those not used to checking the interlinear but it gets easier with practice, and the closer one looks the more one can see that the bible was changed to conform to the prevailing belief when all the virgins went to sleep. The two ears of grain are the two witnesses, the despised small things. These two ears of grain are omitted when the harvesters tie the weeds into bundles in the near offing. At which time they will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their father (Mt 13:43)
As I said is gets a little easier with practice, but practice only enables one to understand what previously was gobbledegook better. But no matter how hard one looks that which is hidden remains hidden. It is Jehovah who seals up and it is Jesus who breaks open the seal shortly before the 7th angel is about to blow his trumpet (Rev 10:7). And a strong angel calls out: "Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?" But neither in heaven nor on earth nor underneath the earth, was there found one able to open the scroll or look into it ... And John starts to weep and is told to stop that: "Look! The lion of the tribe of Judah the Root of David has conquered, [cf. Isa 53:2], so as to open the scroll and its seals... And I saw standing in the midst of the throne ... a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, [Isa 53:7,10], having seven horns and seven eyes, which means the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth... And he took the scroll out of the hand of the one seated on the throne and all those around the throne sing a new song: Saying you are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered, [aorist passive], and with your blood, you buy, [aorist], persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and you make, [aorist], them to be a kingdom of priests to our God and they will reign upon/over, [cf. Rev 2:26, 9:11, 17:18], the earth...(Rev 5:2-10)

Before being slaughtered this lamb said to those of his followers who would remain loyal to him ...If people have called the householder Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household so? Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not be uncovered, and secret that will not become known... (Mt 10:25,26). We are now in that time period when the scroll has been unsealed and that which has been secret is being made known.

In the prophecy of Zechariah concerning the two witnesses, the two ears of wheat Zech 4:12, cf Gen 41:5, which has been mistranslated bunches of twigs or branches, there are also other words that have been mistranslated to make the prophecy conform to a religious narrative. One needs to look at these to get a glimpse of what has been covered over and to understand what the seven thunders said concerning these two ears of grain, aka, the two witnesses, (Rev 10:4,7,8-11).

The angel said to Zechariah, "The very hands of Zerubbabel, [see the picture in post 359, above], have laid the foundation of this household, [ not temple, cf. Ex 12:4, see pic. below], and his own hands will finish it... For who has despised the day of small things.

Image

This prophecy is not about rebuilding the physical temple in Jerusalem, but about rebuilding God’s household, which began in Babylon. But more on that later.

Another mistranslated word that has a bearing on this is plummet. The NWT reads thus: For who has despised the day of small things? And they will certainly see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel. (Zec 4:10). This appears to have been taken from the Latin Vulgate: http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=43&c=4. To see how other English versions have rendered this, see, https://biblehub.com/parallel/zechariah/4-10.htm. Smith’s Literal Translation is closest to the Hebrew.

A plummet is a builder’s tool used for ascertaining true vertical, this is not what is in Zerubbabel's hand. A literal reading of the Hebrew text is ... they rejoice and see the stone, the alloy/tin, in the hand of Zerubbabel. Zech. 4:10. The stone referred to is a cut stone such as a gemstone ( 68 Eben, as at Gen 2:12), or a builders block or brick (as at Gen 11:13; 28:3). Tin first patented in 1810, is not in the Bible. Hebrew, bedil, as used at Zech 4:10, (see RH column, 913. bedil ) is also referred to at Isa 1:25. Jehovah said concerning Jerusalem ... And I will turn back my hand upon you and I shall remove your dross and take away all your bedil/alloy
Google: An alloy... is made up of two or more chemical elements, of which at least one is a metal. ...Most alloys are made by melting the metals, mixing them while they are liquid to form a solution, then leaving them to cool and turn solid again
At Zech 13:9 it says concerning this process...And I shall certainly bring the third part through the fire, and I shall refine them as in the refining of silver and examine them as in the examining of gold. It for its part will call upon my name, and I for my part will answer it. I will say, .'It is my people, and it for its part will say, ' Jehovah is my God.' Do you begin to get the sense of how this prophecy is connected to the two ears of grain, the two witnesses of Rev 11:3,4?
LRW~

AmosAU
Posts: 1157
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Qld. Australia
Contact:

Re: Revelation

#362 Post by AmosAU » 2 weeks ago

Hi CI,

Thanks for your latest post here. This is the type of digging deeper, that the wise virgins should be doing. It is only by digging deeper that we can remove the dross of mistranslation.

Our modern print and reading based society, needs to be able to understand what the original oral society had been transmitting orally for decades and in some cases for centuries. Each of these societies are based on an opposite spectrum of perception and understanding. They can become compatible only after we are able to understand what the original oral method of transmission actually was saying, what it meant to the original recipients of the message.

Regards, Amos.

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 728
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#363 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Revelation
Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses part 2 continued.

In post 361 above I said concerning the prophecy of Zecheriah chapter four,
This prophecy is not about rebuilding the physical temple in Jerusalem, but about rebuilding God’s household, which began in Babylon. But more on that later...
A plummet is a builder’s tool used for ascertaining true vertical, this is not what is in Zerubbabel's hand. A literal reading of the Hebrew text is ... they rejoice and see the stone, the alloy/tin, in the hand of Zerubbabel. Zech. 4:10. The stone referred to is a cut stone such as a gemstone ( 68 Eben, as at Gen 2:12), or a builders block or brick (as at Gen 11:13; 28:3)
This stone, although given a different Strong's number, is the same stone as at Dan 2:34

Image

Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar's dream of this image of successive kingdoms, starting with Nebuchadnezzar, as the head of gold and ending with toes made of iron and malleable clay, saying concerning the toes: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite; for as much as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze/copper, the moulded clay, the silver and the gold, the great God himself has made known what is to occur after this... (Dan 2:44,45)

Note, that although this is a cut stone, it is not cut by human hands. And compare ...This is the word of Jehovah to Zerubbabel, seed of Babel, 2234. zera, seed, with seed of mankind here, Dan 2:43. Also note, the positioning of the malleable/moist clay in verse 45, is between the bronze and silver of the successive kingdoms. So this malleable clay first appeared in the latter part of the Medo/Persian empire, before the Greek empire. To what then, does this clay refer? Jehovah says: ... Woe to the stubborn sons... those disposed to carry out counsel but not from me, and to pour out a libation, but not with my spirit...in view of your despising/rejecting this word and since you men trust in defrauding and in what is devious to support yourself, therefore, this error will become like a broken section about to fall down, a swelling out of a highly raised wall, the breakdown of which will come suddenly... And one will certainly break it as in the breaking of a large jar of the potter's vessel, so that there cannot be found among its crushed pieces a fragment of earthenware , [same as at Dan 2:43], with which to rake the fire...(Isa 30:1,12-14). And Paul says, ... We have this treasure in earthenwear vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God's and not that out of ourselves,( 2Cor 4:7). Therefore this clay/earthenware refers to the ones responsible for communicating God's word to mankind.

Jehovah said to Zechariah, ...not by military force, nor by power, but by my spirit... Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a level land, and I will certainly bring forth a head stone, [see pic. Zec 4:7 above], ...The very hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this household and his own hand will finish it...(Zec 4:6,7)

The seed of Babel/Zerubbabel laid the foundation of God's household, with the copying and preserving of God's word in the time of Ezra,

"... Ezra came up from Babylon; and he was a skilled scribe in the Law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given.
"... Ezra the priest, the scribe, expert in the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of His statutes to Israel."
(Ezra 7:6,11)
Ezra was the first in a long line of Sopherim (Scribes) who were given the task of refining the scriptures, maintaining their accuracy, and providing a correct interpretation of their meaning...
Being a Sopher (Scribe) did not have anything to do with one’s character, it had to do with their ability to maintain the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures as well as work with other important religious and state documents.
~ The Emendations ~
An emendation is an "alteration intended to improve." The Sopherim, in a misguided zeal for God and the Scriptures, took it upon themselves to make some changes to the manuscripts which were handed down to them. This might seem like a terrible thing to do, to make changes to the very Word of God. However, the Sopherim believed they were either: 1.) making necessary corrections to errors that had crept into their copies, 2.) were clarifying the actual intent of the Scriptures, or 3.) (in the case of the Tetragrammaton, YHVH) were showing extreme reverence for the sacred name of God. In any case, they felt they were handling the Scriptures in a way that would be approved by God.
While one may condemn what the Sopherim did, in making alterations to the Scriptures, one must also praise them for keeping accurate records of their changes. This enables us to ‘look over their shoulder’ as it were, and see exactly what changes they made...
https://www.oocities.org/hebrew_roots/h ... -1-02.html (underline & bold mine)

That is how it began, culminating in the complete removal of God's name, YHWH, in the Greek translation (LXX) of the Hebrew text.

The stone and alloy in Zerubbabel's hand are the seven eyes of Jehovah that are roving about in all the earth , (Zec 4:10), to cut out the two ears of grain/witnesses that will come to be the stone that strikes Nebuchadnezzar's dream image ...for as much as you beheld a stone was cut not by hands and that it crushed the iron the copper/bronze and the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The powerful one has made known what will occur in the final part of the days. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation is trustworthy... (Dan 2:45)
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3563
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#364 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Hi CI,

I see a subtle assumption that you are making in the quote below (the assumption is in the bolded/underlined part):
Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar's dream of this image of successive kingdoms, starting with Nebuchadnezzar, as the head of gold and ending with toes made of iron and malleable clay, saying concerning the toes: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom . . .

You are linking 'God's setting up a kingdom' with "the toes." See this post for what I mean by that. (See also the other links in this post.)

For the reader, this post discusses when Jesus became king. Logically, the "setting up" of God's Kingdom should correspond closely with when Jesus becomes a king. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to be a king in a kingdom that had not yet been 'set up.' (Col 1:13)


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 728
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#365 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
Hi CI,

I see a subtle assumption that you are making in the quote below (the assumption is in the bolded/underlined part):
Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar's dream of this image of successive kingdoms, starting with Nebuchadnezzar, as the head of gold and ending with toes made of iron and malleable clay, saying concerning the toes: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom . . .

You are linking 'God's setting up a kingdom' with "the toes." See this post for what I mean by that. (See also the other links in this post.)

For the reader, this post discusses when Jesus became king. Logically, the "setting up" of God's Kingdom should correspond closely with when Jesus becomes a king. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to be a king in a kingdom that had not yet been 'set up.' (Col 1:13)

Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

You assume that I assumed. I am not making any assumptions, subtle or otherwise. All I did was short-circuit the description as my focus was on verse 45. But to clear the waters, here is the expanded version. Concerning the image, its head was of gold, its breasts and its arms of silver, its belly and thighs of copper/bronze, its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of moulded clay... You yourself, [Nebuchadnezzar], are the head of gold and after you, there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, and another kingdom, a third one, of copper/bronze that will rule over the whole earth... whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of moulded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will be divided but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it...
And as for the toes
, [fem. plural], the kingdom will prove to be partly strong and will partly prove to be fragile. Whereas you beheld iron is mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring/seed of man, [singular], (Dan 2:32,33,38,39,41,42,43). Who are the ‘they’ referred to here?

The only assumption I am making, if any, is that these metals, starting with the head of gold, Nebuchadnezzar, (Dan 2:38), proceed in order, each being inferior in quality and strength to the next, ending with democracies, (Dan 2:39,43)... i.e. Babylon, (gold); Medo/Persian, (silver); Greece, (copper/bronze); Rome, (iron) with the feet and toes, mixed with moist clay being democracies ...And in the days of those kings, [plural, kings/toes, of democratic governments], the God of heaven itself will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will rule to times indefinite, (Dan 2:44).

In post 363 above I pointed out that in the next verse, Dan 2:45, this order is not only reversed starting from the bottom of the image, but the clay, the offspring of mankind, (Dan 2:43), is placed between copper/bronze and silver ... Forasmuch as you beheld that out of a mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it broke to pieces, [starting from the bottom of the image], the iron, the copper/bronze, the moulded clay, the silver and the gold , (Dan 2:45). This indicates that this mixing of clay, the offspring of mankind, with the hardness of the metallic rulerships began in the latter part of the Medo/Persian empire. At that time the influence of Greek philosophy had already made inroads and religious philosophy began to be an integral part of the triad of the ruling entities.

Image

Nearly 2,400 years ago, the Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle explored political philosophy. Aristotle concluded that “it is evident that the form of government is best in which every man, whoever he is, can act best and live happily.” ...
Both Plato and Aristotle lived in the democratic Greek city-state of Athens. In Athenian democracy, all male citizens directly participated in making laws and deciding jury trials. Yearly elections decided who would fill important government positions. Citizens drew lots to see who would staff the remaining posts... Plato was a student of Socrates
...
Image
Plato’s ideal and just state is an aristocracy, the rule of the best. He believed leaders needed to be wise and trained in how to run a state, just as captains of ships are trained in how to run a ship. BRIA 26 1 Plato and Aristotle on Tyranny and the Rule of Law
...Sparta (Doric Greek: Σπάρτα, Spártā; Attic Greek...Around 650 BCE, it rose to become the dominant military land-power in ancient Greece....Given its military pre-eminence, Sparta was recognized as the leading force of the unified Greek military during the Greco-Persian Wars Sparta
...Laconophilia is love or admiration of Sparta and of the Spartan culture or constitution...Laconophiles nevertheless remained among the philosophers. Some of the young men who followed Socrates had been Laconophiles. Socrates himself is portrayed as praising the laws of Sparta and Crete.[5] Critias, a companion of Socrates, helped bring about the oligarchic rule of the Thirty Tyrants, who were supported by Sparta... Plato also, in his writings, seems to prefer a Spartan-type regime over a democratic one, (underline mine).Laconophilia is love or admiration of Sparta and of the Spartan culture or constitution

From the above one can see how the seed of man, the clay, the Spartan way, ( Dan 2:34), impacted rule, diluting the power of rulers. By the first century, the clay's influence and power was the accepted norm. That is why the priests saw Jesus as a political threat, saying: ... "if we leave him alone this way, they will all put faith in him and the Romans will come to take away both our place and our nations, (Jhn 11:48).

Although religion has always been part of the Jewish system of rule, with the priest administering God’s Law and all including the king subservient to it. The tables were turned with the priesthood becoming a servant of the king as described at Dan 8:9-12. This subservient Jewish religious apostasy will reach its pinnacle when the two witnesses are killed by the beast that rises out of the abyss, (Dan 8:24,25, 26; Dan 12:7; Rev 11:7). At that time the stone that Jehovah cut out of the mountain standing before Zerubbabel/the seed of Babel, will strike the image and pulverise it, (Zec 4:6,7; Dan 2:34,35,44; Rev 11:11,12,13)
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3563
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#366 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

CI,

I think you are missing my point.


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 728
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#367 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
CI,

I think you are missing my point.


Bobcat
Ditto Bobcat, we both are missing the point.



Each one sees and interprets the world from their perspective. For instance, if C.T. Russell had lived today, would he believe and do what he did then? I doubt it. At this point, I am, as foretold (Mt 13: 44-49,52), clearing out all my outdated treasure of knowledge and am replacing it with what I understand now. Paul said when that which is complete arrives that which is partial, [knowledge], will be discarded...(1Cor 13:10). What is this complete knowledge? At Rev10:4-10 John is told ... Seal up the thing the seven thunders spoke... There will be no delay any longer, but in the days of sounding of the seventh trumpet...when he is about to blow his trumpet the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he, [Jesus], declared to his own slaves [and] the prophets, is complete. So it is the complete knowledge or understanding of that which was foretold for our day; if our day is that day. As Amos pointed out in a recent post, God has predestined what will occur concerning his overall purpose, but not the details of how or whom he will use to accomplish that purpose.

If we were still alive fifty years from now, would we still be debating these same points? Of course not. But we are short-lived and, if we are not fearful, we will continue to learn until the day we die. Each day brings new things to light about ourselves, others, and the world.

But Paul said that Satan would mislead many with powerful works and signs. Jesus also warns that this would happen before the son of man returns, (Mt 24:23-28,30; 2Thess 2:7-12). As Paul indicated a love of truth is required so as not to be misled.

In the above video when Oblio is cast out of his community because he was pointless, he didn't hang around day after day, flogging a :deadhorse: , but faced his fear and went on a mission to find the point.
LRW~

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests