Revelation

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Kerry Huish
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Re: Revelation

#331 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Is Jesus sacrifice just for those who will rule with him?
Not according to John.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, there are those who have been selected to rule with the Christ, these are first, but there are also those whom Christ and the 'select' will rule over.

Revelation 7:13-17 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

It is the same blood and new covenant that cleanses and all.

1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Bottom line, Jesus blood sacrifice is absolutely nessasay and vital for salvation, to be teaching otherwise is a wicked, wicked lie.

Regards

Kerry

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coccus ilicis
Posts: 702
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Re: Revelation

#332 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
2 weeks ago
Is Jesus sacrifice just for those who will rule with him?
Not according to John.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, there are those who have been selected to rule with the Christ, these are first, but there are also those whom Christ and the 'select' will rule over.

Revelation 7:13-17 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

It is the same blood and new covenant that cleanses and all.

1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Bottom line, Jesus blood sacrifice is absolutely necessary and vital for salvation, to be teaching otherwise is a wicked, wicked lie.

Regards

Kerry
Thank you Kerry for tabling these verses, your search for supporting verse is very thorough.

Since the author of the 1st and 2nd letters attributed to John does not provide his name, who wrote them is unknown, but they were not written by John to whom Jesus gave Revelation (Rev 1:1). We also do not know what he had in mind when he said
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world's
Since Jesus did not say this, he may have had the Jewish cosmos/world in mind, as at Heb 4:3, (cf Ps 95:10,11). Or he may have had John the Baptist’s comment about the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world in mind. (Jhn 1:29). This church father also believed it to be the last hour ...Little children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard the antichrist is coming, even now there are many antichrists from which fact we have the knowledge it is the last hour....(1Jhn 2:18). The term Antichrist only appears in his letters, see RH column, here. It would have been coined after the followers of Jesus started calling themselves Christians. Google says: Followers of Jesus were first called “Christians” in Antioch. Acts 11:26. "…for a whole year, Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."... They were called "Christians" because their speech and behaviour were like Christ. Note the reason for which they adopted the epithet, Christian, because their speech and behaviour were like Christ's... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians Χριστιανός...meaning "follower of Christ"...comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one" with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership. In the Greek Septuagint, Christos was used to translating the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed.".

Here’s one clue as to why the writer of 1&2 John might have said this. The Greek interlinear shows that anointed/χριστός 5547 first occurs at Lev 4:3,5,16, ...If the priest, the anointed one is sinning so as to bring guiltiness upon the people ... Then the priest, anointed one, must bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting.... He was applying this role of the high priest to Jesus. That by dying he replaces the Aaronic priesthood and becomes the high priest of a new covenant, one making the old covenant obsolete. And in this way was able to redeem ones from the earth to become king priests in heaven, where the rulership of the new covenant would reside. But he extrapolated Lev 4:3 one step further applying it to non-Jews, when he said ...And he is the propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not only ours but the whole world's.

By that time they appear to have become convinced that the new covenant would have the same authority structure as the old. He says... by this we have the knowledge that we have come to know him, namely, if we are observing his commandments... He that says, “I have come to know him,” and yet is not observing his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in that person... (1Jhn 2:3,4). He himself, appears to have set himself above that dictum as he addresses his fellow servants of God as little children and judges them (1st Jhn 2:12,18,19, cf. Mt 7:1-5; 23:9,10) ... Young children, it is the last hour, and just as we have heard the antichrist is coming, [he does not say from where this expression came], even now there have come many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge it is the last hour. This is the proof he gives, which indicates that at that time they believed there ascention was imminent. ...They went out from us, but they are not of our sort, they would have remained with us, but they went out that it might be shown up that they are not of our sort and have an anointing of the holy one... (1Jhn 2:19). See anointed here, 1Jhn 20, 5545 χρίσματος, which is first used in the, Greek interlinear (LXX) at Ex 29:7...He continues ...Who is the liar, if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah/χριστός...(1Jhn 2:22). From this, it appears he sees them, his brothers, as an anointed priesthood, with himself fulfilling the role of high priest, the earthly representative of Christ on earth. This was the beginnings of the nascent lawlessness that was already at work while Paul was still alive, who had said: True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work until the one alone restraining it gets to be out of the way, then indeed the lawless one will be revealed... ((2Thess 2:3,4,5,7). Paul had died decades earlier, and these letters reveal the emergence of this lawless one, i.e. ones who considered themselves anointed high priests in succession, (2Thess 2:8).

When John the Baptist said: (Jhn 1:29)... “See the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, he most likely had the Jewish cosmos/world in mind because his baptism signified their repentance (Jhn 1:22,23, cf Isa 40:3, 27). The author who recorded what John the Baptist had said at that time is also unknown. Peter had asked concerning him ...Lord what will this man do... and Jesus had answered ...If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is it to you...This disciple wrote these things, (Jhn 21:22,23,24).

If Jesus willed that he should remain until he returns, he will be among those at the base of the altar, who cry out ...until when Lord, holy and true are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth... (Rev 5:10). White robes are given them and they are told to wait a little longer until their number is filled with their brothers who are about to be killed as they had been (Rev 6:10,11) The white robes that were given symbolized their having been redeemed by Jesus’s blood to make them fit for the heavenly calling. Their resurrection occurs after the two symbolic witnesses receive the invitation to come on up here, at the time of the blowing of the seventh trumpet,(Rev 11:12,15). This is the first resurrection over whom the second death has no authority (Rev 20:4,6).

After this, John sees a great crowd standing before the throne and the Lamb dressed in white robes, And he asks about them, and is told ..."These are the ones coming out, [pres. participle passive, middle voice], out of the great tribulation, and they wash, [aorist], their robes and make them white, [aorist], in the blood of the Lamb. This action is taken by them , they in effect cleanse and whiten themselves (cf Dan 12: 10). And on earth this great crowd serve the Lamb sitting on the throne of God day and night in his temple. And the one sitting on the throne will throw his tent over them ,[verb future], and they will hunger no more nor thirst any more, neither will the sun beat down on them, nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and will lead them, [future], to fountains of waters of life ... (Rev 7:14-17) These fountains of waters of life, are the same ones Jesus referred to when he said to the woman at the well ..."Whoever drinks of this water I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life." (Jhn 4:14).

So it appears that survivors of the great tribulation serve God on earth, inviting other survivors of the great tribulation, saying: ..."Come you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways and we will walk in his path... (Isa 2:3). In doing so they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, cleansing and whitening themself, in the same way that those who have the heavenly calling do so prior to his return. (Dan 12:10). Those whom Jesus addressed at Mt 5:3-10 would be part of this great crowd out of all nations that survives the great tribulation..

At Isa 65:1-25 Jehovah compares the new heavens and earth with the heavens and earth to the reality that then existed under the Law administered by successive high priests. And the writer of the letter to the Hebrews seems to have had this prophecy (Isa 65:16) in mind when he said ... and the one blessing himself in the earth will bless himself by the God of truth, [amen truth, or emun faithfuless], see Heb 9:24; 10:38.

Yes, the Lamb does eventually take away the sin of the world, but not by sacrificing his body for an original sin, as later promulgated by the man of lawlessness, but by leading people of all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues to the fountains of waters of life, namely his sayings, (Jhn 6:63). But as indicated in Isaiah 65 not all survivors of the great tribulation will want to drink these life giving waters, these ones a destined for the second death, (Rev 20:11-15).
LRW~

Kerry Huish
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Re: Revelation

#333 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

I have said enough.
I will move aside and let you get on with what it is you are doing.

Its too late, the suction has already got you...



Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

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Bruno
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Re: Revelation

#334 Post by Bruno » 1 week ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
1 week ago
I have said enough.
I will move aside and let you get on with what it is you are doing.

Its too late, the suction has already got you...



Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Nice video Kerry! You’re a man after my own heart. Unfortunately Jesus got in there before you.

Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)

New International Version 1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Karl

Phoebe
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Re: Revelation

#335 Post by Phoebe » 4 days ago

That videoclip where we see that Charlie was being tested.....and finally...✨
Keeping my heart full of hope and love for the ultimate victory of our Saviour...but of course....he has said....
‘It is finished’.

We are all the work of his hands.

Phoebe
Posts: 952
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#336 Post by Phoebe » 4 days ago

Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)
👍✨

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#337 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 days ago

Bruno wrote:
1 week ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
1 week ago
Nice video Kerry! You’re a man after my own heart. Unfortunately, Jesus got in there before you.
Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)
New International Version 1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
Thank you all contributors,

Nice analogy Bruno; yes, Jesus got in there before any of us even began to understand. God has been ahead all along and is in it for the long haul, making corrections here and there to keep us on track.

The adversary, Satan also plays a role in the movie to bring their weaknesses to the surface. although he only appears twice, he plays a key part of the whole. ...And war breaks out in heaven, [aorist]: Michael and his angels battle with the dragon, [aorist], and the dragon and his angels battle, [aorist], but he has not the strength, [aorist], neither is found for them, [ aorist pass.], a place any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon is hurled, [aorist pass.] the original/ancient serpent, the one who is being called, [pres. pass. participle], Devil and Satan, who is misleading, [pres. participle], the entire inhabited earth... (Rev 12:7-9)

Notice it says this ancient serpent is called Devil and Satan. It doesn't say that these are his alternative names but that that is what people call the original serpent when war breaks out in heaven. But this is a subject that needs to be dealt with at another time.

In post 329 Where I said
Putting it all together, Jesus gave his blood to free/manumit persons from every tribe, tongue, people and nation from slavery so that they would be fit to rule with him. Jesus had said to Jews that believed him “If you remain in my word you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free... They replied...never have we been slaves to anyone. But they were slaves to sin and death, and so Jesus said. Therefore if the Son sets you free you will actually be free...(Jhn 8:31,32,36). Once his sayings had reached the most distant parts of the earth others out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation were invited, (Rev 5:9,10).
In support, I added Jesus’s illustration about the king who prepared a marriage feast for his son. When those he had invited begged off with all manner of excuses, and some went so far as to beat up his slaves, treating them insolently. He sent out his army to destroy those murderers and burned their city, (cf. Mt 21:38; Jhn 7:19; Mt23:38; 24:2). And then said to his slaves ...Go, therefore, go on the roads leading out of the city and anyone you find invite to the marriage feast, (Mt 22:1-9). We know that the slaves followed the King's instruction starting out from Jerusalem. Before being raised to heaven Jesus had told them ...you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth ... Acts 1:8. And all they found along the way they invited. Initially, they passed on his teaching by word of mouth, those that went further afield may have transcribed his sayings and taken a hand-written copy along with themselves (see. Lu 1:1).

At Rev 2:1 to Rev 3:18. John sees someone like the 'son of man' standing in the midst of seven golden lamp stands (Rev 1:13) and holds seven stars in his right hand and has a sharp, long two-edged sword protruding from his mouth... This one says to John ...Write down what you see, [aorist], and the things that are, [present], and the things that are about, [present], to take place, [aorist] after these ...As for the sacred secret of the seven stars, that you see upon my right-hand, and of the seven golden lamp stands; The seven stars are messengers/angels of the seven congregations, [groups of invited ones] (Rev 1:12-20, cf. Heb 4:6,12; Jhn 12:48.49).

At the time when the things pictured in the visions of Revelation are about to be fulfilled, he sends a letter, assessing the performance of each of the congregation and instructions on what they must do to receive the stated reward, See post 329 here. Pergamon, where the son of man wages war with the two-edged sword most likely refers to those who use the Bible as their source document. Like Balaam at Peor (Rev 2:12,14), they give lip service to the words of God, repeating his sayings to get the reward, i.e. their personal salvation. In Balaam's case, it was status and monetary gain, (see Nu 22:13,16,17,18,19,30, 32,35; 24:1-9, 10,11, 12,13,14; 31:16). Smyrna and Philadelphia may refer to those who use the Torah as their source document and those Jews still waiting on God for repatriation. Those who hear what the Spirit says will know what they need to do.

The worldhistory.org - Viking Prophecy indicates that Nordic peoples may have heard the message and responded to the invitation.

Thor, son of Odin and the earth, is also destined to fall in this great battle, against the sea-serpent that will kill him with its venomous breath, [cf. Mt 12:14; 23:2,33]. The apocalypse gains momentum after the episode involving the most popular of the gods, as "the sun turns black the earth sinks in the sea / hot stars are whirled down / from heaven",, (Hildebrand, stanza 57), [cf Rev 6:12,13], ….
Is this truly the end? With humanity lost and the gods defeated? No, according to the poem the world will rise again, because there are still a few gods remaining and they gather and talk about the recent events and the fall of the master of runes, Odin
.

See, How to use Rune Stones for Divination. Rune stones are an ancient proto-Germanic tradition dating back to potentially the 1st century AD. They consist of a runic alphabet of 24 letters, usually made out of wood or stone that was used as a method of fortune-telling and protection sigils. The first completion of the total alphabet was the Elder Futhark runes in the 5th century AD, that are most often used still today, and then the Younger Futhark stones were adapted by the Vikings and other Nordic tribes and continued until Medieval times. Compare these with the stone in the High priest's preast piece, post 239, here.

His son Baldr returns ... fields are once more filled with ripe fruit... the nephews of Odin dwell in heaven, [cf Rev 11:12]. On the mountain Gimle, one can see a great golden hall with a mighty unnamed ruler, , [cf, Rev 21:10, 22,23; 22:1,22]. It seems like quite an intense story, but like many other aspects of Norse mythology, many pieces are missing from the puzzle and it has been suggested many times that Christianity might have influenced the last part of the poem, (underline, bold and inserted comments mine). This mighty ruler being unnamed supports the thought that Christianity influenced the last part of this poem. How so?

All their Gods had descriptive names that stood for the traits they were renowned for, i.e. Google Thor (/θɔːr/; from Old Norse: Þórr) is a hammer-wielding God associated with lightning, thunder, storms, sacred groves and trees, strength, the protection of mankind and also hallowing and fertility. . They would have asked the disciples, 'what does the name, Yehovah/Jehovah, stand for?' And on being told, it means 'He Comes to Be,' and thus Jehovah God means, 'He comes to be God.' Not understanding the implication, they refer to him as the unnamed ruler. And they gave Jesus/Yehoshua the name Baldr: Google: Baldr (anglicised Balder, Icelandic: Baldur) is the god of light, joy, purity, and the summer sun in Norse mythology,


In this video, the presenter, Mike Rugnetta, mentions others who may have been invited.


Since his target audience is most likely students his manner of speech is light.
At 7:16 on the timeline, he mentions the lake of fire, (cf Rev 19:20). And then moving on to the next poem Ragnarök, at 7:41, he says, the world has been destroyed by flames and all the people and gods are dead and everything is darkness,, [cf. Rev 6:12,13,14]. Except in this end of the world story there is a silver lining. Because the world is consumed by flames what remains is water. And as we see in the creation stories, water has some pretty impressive regenerative powers. Accordingly, the 'earth will rise again out of the water, fair and green’... It turns out that not all of the Gods perished in the massive inferno. Odin's sons Vidarr a Vali and Thor's sons Magni and Modi survive the fire... They are joined by Baldr and Hodi who have come back from the world of the dead . These ones and others round out the new pantheon of the Gods , (Rev 20:4,5,6). The best part is what happens when these new gods gather together. They sit down ... telling the stories that only they know, [cf. Rev 14:3,4,5], the same stories of the Norse gods that we are talking about now. ...
There's a lot to unpack in the Ragnarök myths... Starting with whether it's really a reflection of the pre-Christian Germanic tradition? You probably noticed the similarity between the Christian story of the apocalypse... But more importantly the most beautiful and beloved of the Gods, Baldr, returns from the dead...
Our main sources for this story, The Edas, were written down well after Christianity became dominant in Northern Europe and Iceland. Were the original myths influenced by Christianity?... Interestingly unlike some of the other apocalypses, those have a beginning and an end. The Christian and Zorastrian stories also establish the beginning of a new age... But Ragnarök, even though it's clearly set in the future, prefigures a renewed world that looks a lot like the old one. But is told almost as if it has already happened. The idea that the end of the world can also be its beginning isn't unique though ... In Hindu mythology the fourth age... sees humans afflicted by corrupt rulers and all the social order upended... and the world will be consumed first by drought and then by fire, followed by a storm lasting many years, and the rebirth of a new world here on Earth...This Indian apocalypse story and Ragnarök are both oddly hopeful... They explain that destruction is necessary for creation... Unlike the apocalypse story of the Bible's book of Revelation, they don't promise a new world only for the righteous,
(coloured text presenter's words, black insertions mine).
In saying this, the presenter may have had in mind the the born-again narrative, where only those that are born again go to heaven and the earth and all others are destroyed. Whereas Jesus spoke of a resurrection for everyone, both righteous and unrighteous, (cf John 5:27,28,29, see also Isa 65:20; Rev 20: 12, 13).

The disciples of Jesus who travelled to these distant lands most likely conveyed the message orally through a local interpreter. If they had written copies of the narrative, (cf Lu 1:1), then these would require translation into the indigenous language. Some peoples did not have a written language, i.e Australian aborigines ...Indigenous stories of dramatic sea-level rise across Australia date back more than 7,000 years in a continuous oral tradition without parallel anywhere in the world, according to new research, The Guardian . Even though distorted, the myths are similar to the biblical narrative and embedded as part of peoples' racial heritage. Today the Nordic people are pursuers of peace and co-existence, a complete reversal from their fierce marauding Viking heritage.

Proof that people have an inexplicable yearning for a renewed earth, one where their life has meaning, is demonstrated by the increasing suicides among young people. 11/09/2020 — The rate of suicide among those aged 10 to 24 increased nearly 60% between 2007 and 2018, according to a report released Friday ... More young people are dying by suicide, and experts aren't sure why

Someone like the son of man (cf Rev 1:13) says: ... All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take my evening meal with him and he with me. To the one that conquers, I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Let the one who has an ear hear what the Spirit says to the congregations , (Rev 3:19-22).
  • Go my people into your interior rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourselves but for a moment until the denunciation passes over...For look Jehovah is coming forth from his place to call to account the inhabitants of the Earth... and the earth will certainly expose her bloodshed and no longer cover over her killed ones, (Isa 26:20-21)
  • And look I saw a great crowd that no one was able to number... these are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,(Rev 7:9,14)
  • And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, (Rev 21:4)
  • And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal flowing out from the throne of God and the Lamb ...and on this side of the river and on that side there were trees yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations, (Rev 22:1,2)
That not only the righteous survive is indicated, when the angelic messenger says: ...Happy is anyone hearing the word of the prophecy of this scroll ... happy are those who wash their robes that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs, and they may gain entrance to the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone carrying on a lie... " 'I Jesus, sent my messenger/angel to the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star,' " And the spirit and the bride keep saying: "Come!" And let anyone hearing say: "Come!" And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes, take life's water free, (Rev 22:1,2,14,15,16,17).
LRW~

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