John 10:16

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Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#61 Post by Get out of her » 2 weeks ago

Thank you so much Bobcat for your assistance with the tribal lists. That was exactly the help I needed and I also will try to remember your suggestions on how to avoid that problem in the future.

But aside from that I wanted to point out how excited and encouraged I was to see that you are recognizing not only some of the additional symbolic meanings or messages contained here in these two lists that I DID NOT point out, but also how very significant and meaningful they are in pointing prophetically and symbolically to SPIRITUAL Israel in particular.

Yes! Absolutely! As I already made clear in the third paragraph of my last post, there is ultimately a rather overwhelming and in fact a downright STUNNING volume of priceless information being conveyed in these two tribal lists, and this includes things that neither of us have even touched on as of yet. Moreover these things as well as everything surrounding them in the scriptures are all woven together in exquisite intricacy like a fine Persian rug. Yes this is actually the case with the entire Bible. It is by no means the work of sinful imperfect humans and the more we continue to learn from it the more this fact will be impressed upon us.

With that thought in mind I wanted to touch briefly on one of the points you brought up in your comments here regarding "Ephraim (being put) before Manasseh." This of course should be all the more interesting to us in view of the fact that Manasseh was actually the firstborn son of Joseph as opposed to Ephraim. (I'm assuming there's a typo here and you are referring specifically to Genesis 48 in this case as opposed to 47) In fact the name Manasseh and by extension its meanings appear to be very connected to the word--Manna which in turn points ultimately once again to the "bread from heaven" or even the FIRSTBORN son spoken of also in accounts like John 6:48-51. I'd like to suggest that this scriptural indication is among MANY things found that support one of the points I was making in my previous post:


Yes its true these people are identified here in Revelation 7 as "standing before the throne and before the lamb," and yes this wording moves some people to assume these ones would now be in heaven, but what we need to understand is that on EVERY occasion in which this "body of MANY members" of the Christ performs this priestly function outlined once again in chapter 11, divine power and authority is RESTORED to the earth or otherwise "COMES DOWN OUT OF heaven…" (Re 21:2) Just as pointed out for us in accounts like Chapter 5 of Revelation, this kingly/priestly authority is primarily concerned with the "EARTH." (Re 5:10)
While we ourselves and in fact EVERYONE should of course be recognizing this firstborn entity or even "foundation cornerstone" of the spiritual temple as first and foremost next only to his father, the issue I am getting at here is the matter that is foremost to Jesus and his "brothers," at least in the setting or situation of fallen mankind that the scriptures are always focused on. (Mt 25:40) In the context or setting in which Jehovah's will is in dire need of being accomplished once again "ON THE EARTH as it (ALREADY) is in the heavens," (Mt 6:10) or otherwise discretion and wisdom on the part of the anointed ones (Christ –Strong's 5547) is needed to assist Jehovah like a "master worker" in once again "FOUNDING" Jehovah's glorious power and authority on the earth," it is of course the FLESHLY or EPHRAIM facet of Israel that this "body of many members of the Christ" is most concerned with or otherwise putting first. (1 Cor 12:12) (Pr 8:29) Let's not forget that the Bible was ultimately written or otherwise directed towards the ANOINTED, as it is ONLY the holy spirit that unlocks its meanings. (1 Cor 2:10) (Lu 2:26) (Mt 16:17) In this very setting which was once again foretold to exist in OUR time period in accounts like Revelation 12:12, this shepherding entity is putting the Ephraim or FLESHLY facet of Jehovah's creation first. The entire purpose of re-establishing the SHEPHERDING or even Manasseh fold of Jehovah's nation and by extension the NATION ITSELF in the first place is to of course serve and restore fleshly MANKIND.


This was the very same point I was endeavoring to make a few days ago in connection with Proverbs Chapter 8 and the manner in which it highlights the qualities of wisdom and discernment. ("Discreet and wise slave"?) At any point in time in which the earth is in dire need of the re-establishment of genuine theocratic authority and power or otherwise yet another "birth"/"coming"'/"founding" of the kingdom, the "greater Solomon" is most focused on and even "most delighted" in the "EARTH" and the "sons of MEN." (Pr 8:31) (Mt 12:42)


However now that we might have a better understanding of what exactly was represented or symbolized by this Ephraim entity all along, there are many OTHER scriptures that we suddenly find ourselves in a better position to grasp, which in turn begin to point to even ADDITIONAL messages or meanings in connection with these things. One example would be Jeremiah 31:9.

Here we find Jehovah going so far as to actually identify EPHRAIM as his "firstborn!" Well once again if we would continue failing to grasp the symbolic significance that was always assigned to him, this would likely prove very confusing and mysterious to us. Please consider the following questions:

Which ultimately came first; a SPIRITUAL manifestation of Jehovah's nation on the earth, or a FLESHLY one?

Even when it came to the "founding of the world" In connection with the subsequent SPRITUAL nation and EVEN in the case of its "foundation CORNERSTONE" in the case of its first foretold birth, did this "greater Solomon" not initially experience a birth in the FLESH as opposed to one in the SPIRIT? (1 Pe 2:6)

At the same time however the MANASSEH (or Judah, Joseph, Levi, etc.) entity can ALSO be recognized as the "firstborn" for the reason ALONE that the "salvation" that is always CONNECTED with this "coming/founding" "ORIGINATES WITH THE JEWS," or what will ultimately/eventually be comprised exclusively of SPIRIT creatures. (Joh 4:22) Yes the nation would need to first actually EXIST before it can be in a position to begin focusing all its attention and even "DELIGHT in the sons of MEN," or otherwise placing this fleshly Ephraim entity as first or foremost. (Pr 8:31) Putting others ahead of ourselves is after all what ministering is all about. (Mt 23:11)

But why would I endeavor to equate a "coming"/"birth" or establishing of the kingdom with a "founding of the world," and why might a better understanding of this help us in turn to better grasp accounts like Proverbs 8?

The first reason I do so is because the scriptures do the very same thing. One of the ways this can be established is to begin comparing accounts like Psalms 82:4, 5 and 102:25, 26 with ones such as 1 Chronicles 16:30 and Psalms 104:5. They at least initially appear to directly contradict each other; don't they? However the moment we understand that "discreet and wise slaves" along with their "leader" or "foundation cornerstone" would ultimately be assisting Jehovah SEVERAL TIMES as a "master worker" to re-establish a broken kingdom covenant that "wickedness" and "darkness" would repeatedly cause to "totter" and even fall as accounts like Psalms 82:4, 5 indicate, we begin to realize as always that ALL of these scriptures are true.

You see just as the Apostle Paul states in accounts like 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, in the case of the final foretold coming of the kingdom or "last trumpet," ALL of the appointed shepherds would now be "incorruptible and immortal." This in turn means that in the case of the final foretold "founding of the world," it would at this point "NEVER be made to totter." While scriptures such as Psalms 96:10 associate the time in which Jehovah would once again have become king over the earth with a time in which the "productive land would not be made to totter," prophecies such as at Revelation 11:15 on the other hand make it clear that this new kingship would ultimately not FULLY or PERMANENTLY commence until sometime after the "SEVENTH trumpet." It is for this very same reason that the seven foretold spiritual baptisms or cleansings and rebirths of Jehovah's nation are represented also in the manner expressed at 2 Kings 5:14. You see as long as Jehovah's appointed shepherds are comprised of sinful/imperfect humans, ultimately the spiritual "leprosy" associated with this will not truly be cleansed until the final foretold "striking" or "baptism of holy spirit and fire" of this shepherding fold. (Mt 3:11 26:31) (Le 26:24) (Mal 3:2, 3)

Once again however even all of this is a mere sampling that only scratches the surface of what is being conveyed to us with merely the representations of the tribal names of Israel ALONE! What an unimaginably incredible and amazing God we are endeavoring to serve and worship!

Agape love;
Sol

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coccus ilicis
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Re: John 10:16

#62 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Get out of her wrote:
2 weeks ago
Dajo 1 wrote:
The “other sheep were surely not a group that was discovered in the 1930s.
I feel that Eph 2:11-15 explains that the other sheep Jesus would bring was the gentiles.

However, I have always puzzled over Revelation 7 about the 144,000 and the great crowd and the teaching that they were two groups. A few months ago Meleti had a great article on his site that made it somewhat clearer... that they were, on reflection, the same.
...
Numbers 1:3-15 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Revelation 7:5-9

1. Reuben . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Judah
2. Simeon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Reuben
3. Judah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gad
4. Issachar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Asher
5. Zebulun . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Naphtali
6. Ephraim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Manasseh
7. Manasseh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Simeon
8. Benjamin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Levi
9. Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Issachar
10. Asher . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Zebulun
11. Gad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Joseph
12. Naphtali . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Benjamin
...
So to make things as simple and concise as possible here, likely our best way forward at this point would be to begin thinking of BOTH of these lists as being symbolic representations of a SINGLE entity....we at least finally recognize the VALUE of this approach, we begin to be in a better position to grasp not only what things it was exactly that were always being symbolized by these various tribal names, but in turn also by the CHANGES that were later made to the list found in Revelation 7.
...at this point is what exactly are these four facets of Israel that are being focused on here in Revelation?
...(Dan was the fifth son born to Jacob) namely the number 5 or what would be referred to as vov in Hebrew. (waw in the more ancient text) What I was always taught by my Hebrew instructor was that the character waw primarily conveyed the concept of judgment. Rest assured it's no coincidence that we immediately find this very word among the symbolic meaning assigned to Dan by Jacob under inspiration.
...
16 "Dan will JUDGE his people as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Let Dan prove to be a serpent nachash by the roadside, a horned snake by the wayside, that bites the heels of the horse so that its rider falls backward. 18 I will wait for salvation from you, O Jehovah." (Ge 49:16-18)
4. Was not the personification of this very same legal power and authority in this setting not represented also as like a "SERPENT" or even serpents that would render Jehovah's adverse judgments against fallen flesh and subsequently be "lifted up in the wilderness" or even "nailed to the torture stake" to accept this "curse" INSTEAD of us? (Joh 3:14) (Nu 21:6-9)...

Agape love;
Sol
Hello Sol

We are both dealing with a complex subject, but our approach is from diametrically opposed viewpoints, which means we often don't see eye to eye. But I am glad you have brought up the subject of the tribes and are dealing with it.

The tribe of Dan being omitted from the list has interested me for some time. The serpent at Gen 49:16 is a nachash, and the horned viper, #8207, comes from the Verb 7779. shuph = to bruise as at Gen 3:15. You might be interested in what scriptures the nachash appears and what it means and how Gen 3:15 comes into the mix at post 239, here. Joseph was a nachash.

The serpents of Numbers 21:6-9 are also nachash. The most intriguing verses dealing with the nachash are at Isaiah ... Do not rejoice, O Philistia, anyone of you, just because the staff of the one striking you has been broken. For out of the root of the serpent/nachash will come forth a poisonous snake, and its offspring will be a flying fiery snake/saraph...(Isa 14:29)...(the plural of seraph, seraphim, occurs, at Isa 6:1-7)...
The other intriguing verse where a saraph or seraph is mentioned is at Isa 30:6,7. Here it is in connection with Rahab (masc.) 7293. Rahab = sea monster or dragon, also mentioned at post 239, in the link above.

Another tidbit, is the number five, Dan was the fifth son. At Rev 9:10 those who do not have the seal of God are tormented for five weeks. I will be interested in what you make of it.

And what is most intriguing, is that we should both be dealing with the same subject, though from opposed viewpoints at the same time. Somehow I don't think this is a mere coincidence.
LRW~

Stranger
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Re: John 10:16

#63 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 week ago
Hello Sol

We are both dealing with a complex subject, but our approach is from diametrically opposed viewpoints,
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 week ago
And what is most intriguing, is that we should both be dealing with the same subject, though from opposed viewpoints at the same time. Somehow I don't think this is a mere coincidence.

Hi Coccus and everyone.

"Sounds like one is going up and one is coming down but both are landing on common ground".....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcnSvzsXMrk



Stranger, (1Ki 18:21 KJV)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: John 10:16

#64 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Stranger wrote:
1 week ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 week ago
Hello Sol

We are both dealing with a complex subject, but our approach is from diametrically opposed viewpoints,
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 week ago
And what is most intriguing, is that we should both be dealing with the same subject, though from opposed viewpoints at the same time. Somehow I don't think this is a mere coincidence.

Hi Coccus and everyone.

"Sounds like one is going up and one is coming down but both are landing on common ground".....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcnSvzsXMrk

Stranger, (1Ki 18:21 KJV)
Hello Stranger,

Spot on.

Image

This is what YHWH looks for in prospective sons, it stands to reason that he would need a great diversity of characters from all walks of life to be trailblazers for a healing of the nations (Rev 22:2). Each one of them starting their journey from different points on the compass, each with their hangups, traditions and systems of belief, religious or atheistic, cluttering their minds and hearts.

The first step is to find fault with where we have come from, the next step is to look for the error of others on the same path, but eventually, we come to our senses and make an effort to apply what Jesus teaches us, and stop looking for the straw in our brother's eye. (Mt 7:3). Instead, we look for points of agreement. The next step is to make setbacks work for us, not avoiding them, or feeling sorry for ourselves and asking, "why me?" Indeed, why not me. If we learn what we can from them, we turn the negative into a positive and keep things moving in the right direction.

A cheer :clap: for all those trailblazers, no matter what size or shape they come in, they are all beautiful.
LRW~

RR144
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Re: John 10:16

#65 Post by RR144 » 1 week ago

C.T. Russell believed that the other sheep was
WT1915MAR wrote:
51 years ago
All of our lives we have been in the shadow of this great Valley of Death. Only father Adam was ever on the mountain-tops of life. He lost his footing there, and descended gradually the slopes into this Valley of the Shadow of Death. We, his children, were all born here. We are dying daily; we are surrounded by dying conditions. We have merely the hope that the Lord will lead His sheep back to the heights of life. He is now leading His sheep of this Gospel Age – the Church, the Body of Christ. By and by He will lead the world, during His Millennial Kingdom; as He declared, "Other sheep I have, that are not of this fold; them also must I bring,...and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd." – John 10:16.
However, when you read the context it is obvious that he was speaking about the Church class which originally was "to the Jew first", then with their rejection of Jesus as a whole the invitation went to the Gentiles". I guess perhaps Russell was looking at the big picture, which he often did and that is that there are 2 salvations, the Heavenly one made up of the consecrated and then to the world of mankind who will inherit the earth.

RR

Stranger
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Re: John 10:16

#66 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 week ago
This is what YHWH looks for in prospective sons, it stands to reason that he would need a great diversity of characters from all walks of life to be trailblazers for a healing of the nations (Rev 22:2).

Hi Coccus,

Great eye, you have the eye's of an Eagle and your wingspan keeps getting broader. No doubt you are prepared for flight and delivery of the healing "darts". (Heb 12:20 KJV)

For who is like YHWH and his Holy Spirit's spiritually begotten Sons?

"To the Chief Musician, A Psalm of and from David" (Ps 18:31)*.... *Note, if you unscramble that scripture number you can come up with (Ps 83:18 KJV) That's pretty sweet!

Yes some of His Holy Sons are in the Flesh! perhaps even some or all from this arena We here attend. Right or Wrong? (Ps 19:2-3)

"...sitting "round" singing songs till the night turns into day (singing from the mountains, till the Eagle finds Her way)....."

{Not all birds sing because they have an answer, they sing because they have a song}......

Jesus Christ in the Flesh or Christ Jesus in His Heavenly position of "Ruling Commander" is like YHWH! (Saith the Stranger.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8bVaTW6UCU


Stranger, (Ps 96:2)

John S
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Re: John 10:

#67 Post by John S » 1 week ago

As regards Dan being excluded in the Account of the 144,000 receiving the thrones/blessings, I offer this:

The first account(Numbers) is the apportionment of the land, and Dan is given a portion on the seacoast , narrowing it up in to the Promised land. This portion which was pushed and pushed by the Philistines was no great prize, indeed, the Danites finally lost out and wandered Northward up to Laish a town in the Northern mountain region......no prize either, so it would appear the Danites did not receive a great blessing, possibly as Gal 6:9 said, never reaped because never sowed.

Whereas the tribes that pushed hardest Manasseh Gad, Judah did fight with great determination.....POSSIBLY.

So when mentioning those tribes who would receive the great reward of becoming Kings in the Kingdom....Dan is not a good example of ‘fighting the fine fight,’, and endurance, but instead Dan just ,’came along for the ride’. (Rev.7)

Instead, Joseph who pleased Yahweh most of all the brothers was honored in Revelation instead, and only one of his sons mentioned...enough to get the point.

Notice in the list in Deuteronomy, no tribe of Levi was gifted with a TERRITORY.....but they were among the wealthiest of tribes because they were given not only the 6 ‘capital cities’ of refuge, but many surrounding cities, and the pasture lands surrounding them. They weren’t listed because they were needed as judges and priests, even executioners , such as in when murdered was committed.... in the whole land, and needed to be distributed throughout Israel.

This is another instance where we the reader must use discernment as phrased several places (as in Daniel) and surmise something about the vacancy of Dan in the blessing afforded the ‘12 tribes’.

In reality Dan was diminished and wound up migrating to a little backwater town way up north in the mountains.notice in Deut. 33:22 there is no blessing or praise given Dan, as the other tribes mentioned, only;

“Dan is a lion CUB leaping from Bashan.” Wow.....not much reward there.....no pain...no gain.

Bobcat
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Re: John 10:16

#68 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

(This post is a continuance from post # 60 here.)

Just for reference, Constable's Notes has some comments on the tribal listing in Rev 7:5-8 -
There are at least 19 lists of Jacob’s sons in the Old Testament (Gen 35:22-26; 46:8-25; 49:3-27; Exod 1:2-5; Num 1:5-15; 2:3-31; 13:4-15; 26:4-51; 34:19-28; Deut 27:12-13; 33:6-25; Josh 13:7-22; Judg 5:12-18; 1Chr 2:1—8:40; 12:24-37; 27:16-22; Ezek 48:1-7, 23-28, 31-34). Not one of them is the same as the list here [i.e. in Rev 7:5-8].

The tribe of Judah was usually first in such lists, as it is here, due to the prophecies that it would lead the other tribes and that Messiah would come from Judah (Gen 49:10; 1Chr 2:3—4:43). “The lion that is from the tribe of Judah” is the Lamb (Rev 5:5; cf. Rev 6:16-17; Heb. 7:13-14).

The tribe of Dan is absent in this list perhaps because that tribe was the first to establish idolatry in Israel (Jdg 18:30; cf. 1 Kings 12:29-30). However the Danites will receive a portion of land in the Millennium (Ezek 48:1-2).

“Joseph” represents Ephraim (Rev 7:8; cf. Rev 7:6). Ephraim was also “notorious for . . . fickleness and proclivity to idol worship.”[305]; Hos 4:17.

Ephraim was the head of the Northern Kingdom of Israel that apostatized under King Jeroboam I’s leadership. Ephraim will also be in the millennial kingdom (Ezek 48:5). Perhaps Ephraim’s name does not appear in this list, though he is included in the reference to Joseph, to avoid the unpleasant connotations of his name.[306], p. 481.

The listing of Manasseh’s name (Rev 7:6) is unusual since his father Joseph’s name also appears. Perhaps this honors Manasseh’s faithfulness in contrast to Ephraim’s unfaithfulness.

References such as the one in this passage argue strongly for the continuance of Israel as a nation in the future and for God’s dealing with ethnic Jews again as His chosen people (cf. Rom 11). This is a major assertion of dispensational theology. Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other Gentiles who claim to be part of this group today fail to recognize that these witnesses will be the physical descendants of Jacob. When God seals them they will know their tribal roots. The sealing will take place after the Rapture.

Constable believes the listing in Rev 7:5-8 is referring to literal Jews. I don't. I believe the listing is an excursus on the question raised in Rev 6:9-11. At any rate, Constable's comments do give a pretty thorough list of all the places the tribes of Israel are referred to in the Bible. He also included a comment on the WT (which is fairly unusual).


Bobcat

John S
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Re: John 10:16

#69 Post by John S » 1 week ago

good points. I think the same way. and in the Kingdom to come wont it be just that way?

Some will be in direct communication with Christ.....ergo, "sitting at the right and the left".... whereas some will go to the end of the table. We reap as we sow here, there, everywhere.

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#70 Post by Get out of her » 1 week ago

I most certainly agree with your assessment of this commentary Bobcat (Constable's notes); except that in my case I find no redeeming value in it whatsoever.

The problem with this long list of scriptural citations that it starts out with is that from the word go this commentator has already completely discredited himself. It immediately becomes clear that he doesn’t even so much as understand the difference between a list of the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve tribes of Israel. For example if the lists of tribes were a list of Jacob's sons, Dan would not be removed from the list in Revelation and Manasseh would not be included. In turn in the case of lists such as in Numbers Chapter 1, Levi would have been included in this list while both Ephraim and Manasseh would have been omitted. These two were NOT sons of Jacob but rather of Joseph. Worse yet, even in the case of lists that genuinely DO qualify as the twelve tribes of Israel, they were actually never even INTENDED to serve as a list of the tribes, but rather those that would receive INHERITANCES in both fleshly and spiritual Israel respectively. If ALL the tribes were EVER actually listed, the fact is we would be considering 14 as opposed to 12.


In my case if I was the one responsible for this commentary you posted here, I would already be doing all I could to completely delete all traces of it to spare myself the constant embarrassment and humiliation. But things quickly get even much worse. Since this "Constable" clearly doesn't understand even the first thing about this subject, it should be no surprise that he soon begins to openly admit it by using words like –"perhaps" in his attempts at various explanations of things. But this doesn't stop him from suddenly playing the expert when he wants to associate Ezekiel 48:5 with the "Millennial Reign" or attack the Watchtower organization's position on the ONE thing that they actually DO seem to understand about the tribal list found in Revelation 7. Evidently someone needs to remind "Constable" that when you are dealing with topics like the Millennial Reign, you at least generally speaking would want to be directing people's attention to the NEW Testament for any kind of scriptural support. But this commentator is still not through with making a complete fool of himself even in just these few paragraphs alone.


If I were ever to make an attempt to cite a scripture to support the position that "ETHNIC Jews" still qualify as "God's chosen people," Romans chapter 11 might if anything be my very LAST choice. In fact ironically or many years this account was my FIRST choice to prove just the opposite, until I later found scriptures that do an even better job of this.


Yes I'd have to insist that this commentary is a perfect example of the constant flow of spiritual "vomit" that seems to ceaselessly flow out of false Christianity or the "great harlot." (Isa 28:8) If it were simply a matter of complete scriptural ignorance it would be bad enough already, but we have ample reason to understand that a least much of it is actually DESIGNED to confuse and mislead people. This is among the reasons that I personally would never even "touch" material like this, let alone post it for my brothers and sisters to consider. (2 Cor 6:17) No offense intended Bobcat.

Agape love;
Sol

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